Light belayer pulled into first piece = grigri drops you?

Senor Arroz wrote: 
Remember, a GriGri with a brake hand in place works just like an ATC. It being "disengaged" doesn't mean you'll get dropped. Only if there's no brake hand in place does that happen. 

^ This! 

Robert Hall wrote:

Yup....B....U...T...wow, so "old Fashoned" !  Just another one of those "old fashoned little things" (like wearing a helmet) that might save your life.

I’d say more old-timers don’t wear helmets, and they appear more common with new generations of climbers 

Happened to me a couple of times. I kept the brake hand on the rope (duh!) and haven't dropped the climber. The first time I was a relative rookie belayer, and mangled my hangs pretty badly. I have learned to let go with the hand that feeds the rope above the device, in case of the fall, and, in general, never to keep the hand above the device, except when actively feeding the rope.

The slamming into the first draw is a lot less dramatic,  less traumatic, a lot less dangerous, when your hands are not getting mangled.

B I have resorted using a spare rope (in a rope bag) as a weight bag, when belaying guys who are taking lots of falls. I mean, taking a large fall or two per climb is not too bad. And they are certainly soft, and hitting nothing but air.

If you are working the route, repeatedly taking bigger-than-necessary falls means more time and energy wasted on boinking up the rope. Not fun for either climber, or belayer.

Light belayer should have an upward piece to protect the climber and their self . That is the bottom line. Everything else is just ignorance. And is not following climbing 101 redundancy. 

I'm a lighter belayer - if there's a difference of more than 30% difference in weight I always anchor myself down with a piece of webbing or the other end of the rope if the route doesn't require the full length - long enough to move around, not long enough to go into the first piece. Problem solved.

The cam of the Gri getting stuck is the least of your worries assuming your belayer keeps brake hand. They can get injured, and the distance they got pulled up adds to your fall = higher chances of decking even with the Gri engaged and/or brake hand on. Just anchor down (from the belay loop or tie in points), it's really that simple.

I´m not saying there isn´t a time and a place for anchoring, even on a sport route (aren't double negatives a kick?). Gaby's never been close to being sucked into the first gear and causing Grigri failure, but bashing into overhangs can be a problem, and I recall one route in particular (an overhanging sport route)  that started from a steep ramp that dropped off into 50 feet of air. It seems to me that the blanket rule that a much lighter belayer (I weigh about 65% more that she does) , who's competent at catching falls, should always and everywhere be anchored doesn't make any sense. When the conditions are right I get the softest catch around and she's free to position herself to her best advantage.

Kellen Miller wrote: Light belayer should have an upward piece to protect the climber and their self . That is the bottom line. Everything else is just ignorance. And is not following climbing 101 redundancy. 

redundancy? can some techno pup post up the plethora meme for us? (facepalm...)

This can happen more easily on multipitch routes where you have a quick draw on one of the anchor bolts or a very close first bolt, Jesus piece, etc, and that is still with the belayer anchored. Definitely something to keep in mind. 

This can happen more easily on multipitch routes where you have a quick draw on one of the anchor bolts or a very close first bolt, Jesus piece, etc, and that is still with the belayer anchored. Definitely something to keep in mind. 

Anecdotally, a handful of times I’ve seen the grigri jam different ways (and not fail) when it got sucked into the first draw and be a pain to work it loose. I’ve never seen or heard of it doing the opposite and releasing. It seems way less likely to me. 

So, if a light belayer is pulled up to the first piece, and his or her GriGri jams against a carabiner (or other piece of gear, or rock), and is momentarily disabled, and the leader is in freefall... WHAT IS SUSPENDING THE BELAYER AGAINST THE IMPEDING OBJECT?  Do people believe the belayer is somehow then just levitating, pressing against that biner while the leader falls all the way to the ground?  Or are you imagining that the GriGri just sorta remains disabled after it's no longer being pulled against the biner?

I suspect that whoever believes this is a danger hasn't really thought it through. I may be wrong, and there have probably been strange accidents with compounding factors, but this "GriGri drops you" thing seems to me like a nonexistent risk, based on an unfounded fear. As soon as the GriGri releases the rope, I would expect that the belayer would start to drop, and the GriGri would immediately re-engage.

  

Matt Robertsonwrote:

So, if a light belayer is pulled up to the first piece, and his or her GriGri jams against a carabiner (or other piece of gear, or rock), and is momentarily disabled, and the leader is in freefall... WHAT IS SUSPENDING THE BELAYER AGAINST THE IMPEDING OBJECT?  Do people believe the belayer is somehow then just levitating, pressing against that biner while the leader falls all the way to the ground?  Or are you imagining that the GriGri just sorta remains disabled after it's no longer being pulled against the biner?

I suspect that whoever believes this is a danger hasn't really thought it through. I may be wrong, and there have probably been strange accidents with compounding factors, but this "GriGri drops you" thing seems to me like a nonexistent risk, based on an unfounded fear. As soon as the GriGri releases the rope, I would expect that the belayer would start to drop, and the GriGri would immediately re-engage.

  

The leader isn’t in free fall. They are on the rope, and rope is being fed really fast. The falling climber has a lot more momentum than the belayer, and since the Grigri is not stopping the rope, they are still holding the belayer up. The Grigri’s spring also could be too stiff to grab some ropes again after the failure, which is also bad. Also, if the climber is close to hitting the ground, even if they won’t be dropped the whole rope, the extra slack could result in the climber decking, or hitting a ledge or even hitting the belayer.

Brent Apgar wrote:

Agreed. I've witnessed this happen first hand. 

In the incident I saw the leader's impact w/ the ground didn't cause any injuries that required medical attention. Actually the rope burn on the belayer's brake hand was the worst outcome.

I've also seen (and personally) belayers pulled into the first piece on many occasions where no one hit the deck.

It has kind of happens to me. I was belaying someone who was a lot heavier than me in a gym, and I got sucked up into the draw. The locking mechanism disengaged, but I was holding the rope. I think that this could be unsafe if the belayer was both new to lead belaying, and only used a Grigri, so they don’t really have the feeling of holding the rope, or don’t really hold the rope enough. Getting sucked up that far hurts anyways, so I think that the bigger thing is not to belay someone too heavy, or tie yourself down or use an ohm.  

Here's a great video by Ben over at Hard is Easy for visual demonstration of the above discussion. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmZE55W5SHo 

Matt Robertsonwrote:

So, if a light belayer is pulled up to the first piece, and his or her GriGri jams against a carabiner (or other piece of gear, or rock), and is momentarily disabled, and the leader is in freefall... WHAT IS SUSPENDING THE BELAYER AGAINST THE IMPEDING OBJECT?  Do people believe the belayer is somehow then just levitating, pressing against that biner while the leader falls all the way to the ground?  Or are you imagining that the GriGri just sorta remains disabled after it's no longer being pulled against the biner?

I suspect that whoever believes this is a danger hasn't really thought it through. I may be wrong, and there have probably been strange accidents with compounding factors, but this "GriGri drops you" thing seems to me like a nonexistent risk, based on an unfounded fear. As soon as the GriGri releases the rope, I would expect that the belayer would start to drop, and the GriGri would immediately re-engage.

  

Read Ezra’s post.

Saw this often in the gym when Gris first came out, that’s about when sandbags started showing up to anchor belayer to the ground.

Yes, gri works like atc when cam is disengaged but people pulled into the wall tend to let go.

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

 I find it hard to believe that even if a grigri's cam was disengaged in a similar fall that the belayer wouldn't be able to manage 

The issue is that you don’t really hold the weight with a Grigri in a normal fall. I would be worried that a new belayer might drop me, or let the rope slip a lot.

I weigh under 100 pounds. I have been injured twice belaying . both times with an ATC, never dropped my partner. You end up hanging up in the air and have to rappel back down to the ground because the heavier partner acts as an anchor.  Always a soft catch lol. Ohm works well if the if the bottom of the climb is steep enough. If it isn’t, you can’t lower your partner . if there’s enough rope drag in the system it’s not an issue.

Kellen Millerwrote: Light belayer should have an upward piece to protect the climber and their self . That is the bottom line. Everything else is just ignorance. And is not following climbing 101 redundancy.

Hi Kellen,

Could you elaborate on this, and give an example of an upward piece redundancy?

Tradibanwrote:

Read Ezra’s post.

Saw this often in the gym when Gris first came out, that’s about when sandbags started showing up to anchor belayer to the ground.

Yes, gri works like atc when cam is disengaged but people pulled into the wall tend to let go.

Which part of Ezra's post did you want me to read?  The part where he confirmed my suspicion that some people believe that a disabled GriGri, despite having released the rope, will somehow magically levitate the belayer against the first piece?  (Ezra: "... and since the Grigri is not stopping the rope, [the falling climber is] still holding the belayer up"), or the part where he confirmed my suspicion that some people believe that a GriGri can somehow just remain disabled after it's no longer being pulled against the biner? (Ezra: "The Grigri's spring also could be too stiff to grab some ropes again after the failure")

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Matt Robertsonwrote:

Which part of Ezra's post did you want me to read?  The part where he confirmed my suspicion that some people believe that a disabled GriGri, despite having released the rope, will somehow magically levitate the belayer against the first piece?  (Ezra: "... and since the Grigri is not stopping the rope, [the falling climber is] still holding the belayer up"), or the part where he confirmed my suspicion that some people believe that a GriGri can somehow just remain disabled after it's no longer being pulled against the biner? (Ezra: "The Grigri's spring also could be too stiff to grab some ropes again after the failure")

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When belayer hits wall and pinches cam open the rope slides through dropping the climber. The belayer stays up momentarily because of friction (cam isn’t open 100%) and the weight difference.

You’re welcome.