Yosemite Decimal System now the Movement Decimal System?

Now you have a 10+ that might feel like anything from 10b to 11a. Just too much variability for my taste.

Maybe this got lost in all the finger pointing, but Movement said that minus means a or b, and plus means c or d. So if you’re on a 10+, it’s a 10c or 10d. At least in a Movement gym.

I was told there'd be no math.

Desert Rock Sports wrote:

+ = "I don't know if I'd call it c or d... but it isn't a or b."

- = "I don't know if I'd call it a or b... but it isn't c or d."

5.10 = "Its a 10... not sure a/b/c/d, but it isn't a 9 and it isn't an 11.

+/- is lazy mixed with a big dose of I can't be sure but I gotta put down something, this feels close enough.

Its funny, but if you ever go out and FA something, or repeat something that has only been done once before you start to have these conversations with friends...
What would you grade it? Oh, 5.11? Really, what about ___ & ____ 5.10s that I know you have done, surely it was easier than those... and how many 5.11s in this style have you been onsighting these days? Harder than ___ and ___ 5.9s... Then you start talking about sub grades and it comes out that not everyone ranks routes the same as we all have different heights, arm spans, strengths, & weaknesses... Landing solidly on a letter grade is not always so straightforward. Especially so if you are considering different areas and route types... and then we come to the question of gyms, where they are so far removed from the difficulties found outside...

Who cares? Its not even going to be around all that long before the wall is reset and the route is gone for good.

Lazy may apply to some places, but at least for Boulder, our setters are world-class. It feels like an affront to them, devaluing their skill, to say "yeah we don't trust you can dial this in to a/b/c/d, so now it's just + or -." 

Andrew Leaf wrote:

Plus their justifications for it were lame, some bs about saving printer labels, as if my $80 a month wasn't covering it.  Might as well take the next step and just label everything 5.9+. No need to change the labels when they change the routes! 

I keep thinking there must be some other reason they're not stating - something like branding or marketing, or they think it will encourage newer climbers, or something like that. Otherwise I can't understand why they wouldn't use the -/ /+ system, which is a better compromise in my opinion. They would only need to buy a few more of the placards for those middle grades so surely that is a non-factor, and it would still keep the setters from spending time entering route info into some word doc, printing the labels, and then spending time to scrape them off.

Chuck Becker wrote:

I keep thinking there must be some other reason they're not stating - something like branding or marketing, or they think it will encourage newer climbers, or something like that. Otherwise I can't understand why they wouldn't use the -/ /+ system, which is a better compromise in my opinion. They would only need to buy a few more of the placards for those middle grades so surely that is a non-factor, and it would still keep the setters from spending time entering route info into some word doc, printing the labels, and then spending time to scrape them off.

I bet it’s a secret ploy to get tons of publicity on mountain project 

Hank Caylor wrote:

I was told there'd be no math.

Doing math and keeping track of all the gym sends on 8anu is a tiring process...

James - wrote:

Everyone knows the grades are supposed to go:

5.8
5.9
5.10a
5.9+
5.10b
5.10c
5.10-
5.11a
5.10d
5.9+
5.11b
etc

Commenting because I have never seen a truer rating system in the world. 

**Kaya gives you the grade for every climb, movement is pushing users to log their climbs and utilize the app to assist in tracking progress. 

James - wrote:

Maybe this got lost in all the finger pointing, but Movement said that minus means a or b, and plus means c or d. So if you’re on a 10+, it’s a 10c or 10d. At least in a Movement gym.

So "10-" means "slightly more than 10?" YDS math gets even MORE screwy at every plot twist. 

Look it's all; very simple, it goes:  5.10, 5.10a, 5.10-, but 5.10- can also mean 5.10, and 5.10a, and/or 5.10b depending 

There's NOTHING to fix. 

SORRY AMENDED: Movement 5.10-, Movement 5.10+, Movement 5.11-, Movement 5.11+, Movement 5.12-,  5.10, 5.10a, 5.10-, but 5.10- can also mean 5.10, and 5.10a, and/or 5.10b depending 

Long Ranger wrote:

It's simple it goes easiest to hardest: 5.10, 5.10a, 5.10-, but 5.10- can also mean 5.10, and 5.10a, and/or 5.10b depending- 

there's nothing to fix. 

I believe that both of you are a little confused. Some, mostly trad, areas dispense with letter grades, and the scale correlates as thus:

5.10- = 5.10a/b, 5.10 = 5.10b/c,  5.10+ = 5.10c/d, and so on.

This really isn’t that complicated, and one just needs to remember that one letter grade is in fact a full grade, so for example, the difference between a 5.12a and 5.12d is night and day, and is the same as 5.12- to 5.12+, with 5.12 in between the two. Really simple. 

Frank Stein wrote:

I believe that both of you are a little confused. Some, mostly trad, areas dispense with letter grades, and the scale correlates as thus:

5.10- = 5.10a/b, 5.10 = 5.10b/c,  5.10+ = 5.10c/d, and so on.

This really isn’t that complicated, and one just needs to remember that one letter grade is in fact a full grade, so for example, the difference between a 5.12a and 5.12d is night and day, and is the same as 5.12- to 5.12+, with 5.12 in between the two. Really simple. 

I don't want to waste my time, but, I think, OP mentioned that his gym introduced "5.10-, 5.10+" and so on, skipping the "5.10"

Quote -

You will now see in Movement gyms the following: 5.10- and 5.10+, there is no longer 5.10

Andrew Leaf wrote:

I care because I use the gym not for adventure, but for targeted workouts, and the difficulty can vary more for the posted grade than it used to. Having vague grades defeats the purpose of grading in the first place.

Grades are subjective, but mostly you could count on them being at most 1 letter grade off. A 10c might feel like a B or D. 

Now you have a 10+ that might feel like anything from 10b to 11a. Just too much variability for my taste.

Plus their justifications for it were lame, some bs about saving printer labels, as if my $80 a month wasn't covering it.  Might as well take the next step and just label everything 5.9+. No need to change the labels when they change the routes! 

If you really are that much of a training geek - the next Ondra? - and need everything to be exact - why in earth would you bother with random come/go routes in a gym?  Use a Kilter (or equivalent).

amarius wrote:

I don't want to waste my time, but, I think, OP mentioned that his gym introduced "5.10-, 5.10+" and so on, skipping the "5.10"

Quote -

I get that, and don’t really care. What annoys me is the idea that some have where the scale goes from 5.XX, 5.XXa, 5.XXb, 5.XXc, 5.XXd through 5.XX+, which is just a tad of a silly interpretation of the scale. 

If 5.10 a/b exists, does that mean 5.10 -/+ exists?

Long Ranger wrote:

If 5.10 a/b exists, does that mean 5.10 -/+ exists?

Don’t be obtuse. 5.10- can be anywhere from a to b. 5.10+ is c or d, and 5.10 is b or c. It’s just a compacted scale. 

Thanks all for the mostly respectful diuscussion. For those of you that couldn't keep it respectful, thank you for reminding me why it's been so long since I tried to engage in a discussion on the internet. 

To those of you suggesting I am not having FUN, I assure you I am. You can have fun and train at a gym and still disagree with Movement compacting the grading system to save on $80 worth of paper throughout all 21 gyms they mange. 

Also my favorite grading scale is the +/- system, where there is 5.10-, 5.10, & 5.10+ and I would have never started this thread if that is what they adopted, but they didn't. I know I can use the phone app but I prefer to leave my phone in my locker and focus my gym time on laughing with my partner and training, my phone takes up enough of my attention otherwise. 

Bickle wrote:

Thanks all for the mostly respectful diuscussion. For those of you that couldn't keep it respectful, thank you for reminding me why it's been so long since I tried to engage in a discussion on the internet. 

To those of you suggesting I am not having FUN, I assure you I am. You can have fun and train at a gym and still disagree with Movement compacting the grading system to save on $80 worth of paper throughout all 21 gyms they mange. 

Also my favorite grading scale is the +/- system, where there is 5.10-, 5.10, & 5.10+ and I would have never started this thread if that is what they adopted, but they didn't. I know I can use the phone app but I prefer to leave my phone in my locker and focus my gym time on laughing with my partner and training, my phone takes up enough of my attention otherwise. 

I don't think they went to the +/- to save paper.  They started using the washers and permanent placards to save paper.  The grade change was to make things "more inclusive" so that if your body type made that 10a feel more like a 10b, you could feel better about yourself.

skik2000 wrote:

…The grade change was to make things "more inclusive" so that if your body type made that 10a feel more like a 10b, you could feel better about yourself.

Heck, then I’d personally prefer they compact it down to 5.E, 5.M, 5.H  (Easy, Moderate, Hard) so I could feel like I’m just one step away from 5.13

This one time at my gym... actually I'll spare the story because nobody cares, its a gym.