Just So We’re Clear…

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

John, if I read this correctly you are saying that the hard bouldering close to the ground was in fact practice for bigger solos? 

While I know that John can answer for himself, I am aware that he did do some long solos in the Tetons, at least, in the ‘50s/ early ‘60s. However,  I believe that he viewed such solos as an alternative form of ‘exploration’ ( both internal and external) instead of a goal that he was working towards.

In the same spirit as he discussed in his post above, he also did some rock climbs during that same timeframe at Devil’s Lake that he approached as highball boulder problems (some over horrendous landings) which were at the time likely the hardest routes in the country ( world?) and have routinely been done since ( when they are done at all) on ropes.

I think Size does matter. Is there really a more aesthetic rock than the Lotus Flower Tower? If a climber can do really hard problems close to the ground  naturally just because of the endurance factor they will not be able to sustain that type of climbing for thousands of feet but if they climb almost as hard up a significant feature like El Cap or Cerro Torre etc. Etc. the giant aesthetic rock is more impressive and a greater accomplishment than the pebble wrenching. 

I remember when I was a newb, thinking that trad climbing was the only “real” climbing. It’s a cute phase but hopefully you’ll grow out of it.

P.s. Resort skiing is neither

Mr. Gill I'm so glad you migrated from supertopo...

Lol falling off the top of Megatron is far more dangerous than your spicy 5.6 trad project will ever be. 

Bouldering is fun. It's that simple. No one is trying to impress you.

 No one was discussing 5.6.. you might want to start smoking better weed..

All a matter of personal preference. I think that 60s rock and roll is the best music ever. Prove me wrong. Same thing—subjective value judgements.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

 No one was discussing 5.6.. you might want to start smoking better weed..

Weren't we?

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

John, if I read this correctly you are saying that the hard bouldering close to the ground was in fact practice for bigger solos? 

You might think so, the way I described it. But I saw bouldering as more an athletic event, an extension of artistic gymnastics. What we saw at the recent Olympics is more in line with my thinking back then. Risk was minimized so one could concentrate on difficulty and form: Virtually everyone, however, focused solely on the former and ignored the latter. I was never satisfied with a problem unless I could do it smoothly. Then there was the Zen-like aspect that arose from this approach. I told you my journey was different - possibly because I learned the sport mostly by myself in isolation. Primarily self-motivated. 

The "bigger solos" stemmed from my first experience on Longs Peak at the age of 17, naively wandering up a huge formation with virtually no knowledge of what lay ahead, movement by movement, always exploring. As time went by, almost always out of the context of what others saw as more competitive climbing. Although I climbed with companions also, I never really perceived climbing as a social activity. I never kept a descriptive diary or written account of my adventures, only a photo or two on the boulder problems I enjoyed, to bring back memories. I had no tick list. And normally very little interest in repeating a problem someone else had done

When I described a continuity of sorts on a 3rd class scale, as I moved out of the "safe" zone of bouldering my perception of climbing shifted as well. More adventure in exploration, less competitive difficulty. I didn't go out on bigger stones to get my name in guide books. Most of my adventures were modest.

Alan Rubinwrote:

While I know that John can answer for himself, I am aware that he did do some long solos in the Tetons, at least, in the ‘50s/ early ‘60s. However,  I believe that he viewed such solos as an alternative form of ‘exploration’ ( both internal and external) instead of a goal that he was working towards.

In the same spirit as he discussed in his post above, he also did some rock climbs during that same timeframe at Devil’s Lake that he approached as highball boulder problems (some over horrendous landings) which were at the time likely the hardest routes in the country ( world?) and have routinely been done since ( when they are done at all) on ropes.

You are correct, Alan. I've always loved the exploration aspect. As for Devils Lake, when with others I can't deny the enticement of informal competition. This occasionally results in me doing something I normally would not. 

This brings to mind another comparison between bouldering and gymnastics. I worked for a bit on the flying rings, which I now see as a rough analogue of highball bouldering. This was truly a scary event no matter how many mats were on the floor. It was circus acrobatics so gracefully done, but the performer was pretty high up in the air, sometimes in a vulnerable position. Like in bouldering I tried to see how far I was willing to go. In this instance it was one successful performance of a cut-and-catch at the end of the front swing, done without a mechanic (like a top rope). I quit after that. 

A few years later flying rings was gone from the world of competitive gymnastics, for, although it was a spectacular crowd pleaser, it was too dangerous. At least I think that was the reason. A few months ago I tried to research the Olympic history of this event - unsuccessfully. It might have been a women's event maybe in the 40s or 50s for a while, but I could not even determine if it had ever been an Olympic event. The "rings" has always been, but I suspect this meant the still rings. (Incidentally, if you Wiki Flying Rings you will see a traced artwork of mine!)

But I digress . . . comes from puffing on that corn cob pipe and reminiscing about those bygone days  

John Gillwrote:

(Incidentally, if you Wiki Flying Rings you will see a traced artwork of mine!)

But I digress . . . comes from puffing on that corn cob pipe and reminiscing about those bygone days  

Love the artwork!

John Gillwrote:

You might think so, the way I described it. But I saw bouldering as more an athletic event, an extension of artistic gymnastics. What we saw at the recent Olympics is more in line with my thinking back then. Risk was minimized so one could concentrate on difficulty and form: Virtually everyone, however, focused solely on the former and ignored the latter. I was never satisfied with a problem unless I could do it smoothly. Then there was the Zen-like aspect that arose from this approach. I told you my journey was different - possibly because I learned the sport mostly by myself in isolation. Primarily self-motivated. 

The "bigger solos" stemmed from my first experience on Longs Peak at the age of 17, naively wandering up a huge formation with virtually no knowledge of what lay ahead, movement by movement, always exploring. As time went by, almost always out of the context of what others saw as more competitive climbing. Although I climbed with companions also, I never really perceived climbing as a social activity. I never kept a descriptive diary or written account of my adventures, only a photo or two on the boulder problems I enjoyed, to bring back memories. I had no tick list. And normally very little interest in repeating a problem someone else had done

When I described a continuity of sorts on a 3rd class scale, as I moved out of the "safe" zone of bouldering my perception of climbing shifted as well. More adventure in exploration, less competitive difficulty. I didn't go out on bigger stones to get my name in guide books. Most of my adventures were modest.

Professor Gill, a nice change to read about a Zen like approach. I enjoy the inner adventure that I find when bouldering in solitude. 

This whole take is wrong. The only "real" climbers are the ones who don't really know what they're doing but go up the spicy 5.9+ anyway. Gods amongst men.

Hal Bwrote:

This whole take is wrong. The only "real" climbers are the ones who don't really know what they're doing but go up the spicy 5.9+ anyway. Gods amongst men.

This puts you in the “boulderers aren’t climbers” camp.  

Not that I disagree with you but I think the distinction is irrelevant. Have fun and stay safe; it doesn’t matter if anyone thinks you are a climber or not. 

Hal Bwrote:

This whole take is wrong. The only "real" climbers are the ones who don't really know what they're doing but go up the spicy 5.9+ anyway. Gods amongst men.

Legit some of the most impressive ascents I've witnessed have been exactly this. 

Bryanwrote:

Weren't we?

Subscribe.

Harry Kwrote:

All this non sense about climbing V17 ie Megatron and Burden Of Dreams, is still just practice for actual meaningful climbing, ya?  

It’s 2023, people identify as cats and boulderers identify as real climbers. Shawn is getting paid to climb little pebble rocks just as many other “pure” boulderers are. 

Without any actual risk, (I can see very little injury risk on either boulder) or fear factor, I am just not that impressed.

Too Big Too Flail. Finnish Line. Ubuntu. Ambrosia. Evilution. Hokusai’s Wave. Terminus. 

Hell, even easy problems like The Thimble, and Natasha’s Highball have a real risk of injury and ‘fear factor’

Watch Dawn Wall if you need to remember what real, hard scary climbing looks like. 

From your list only Tommy and Ondra have both done hard ‘practice’ climbs along with big walls and/or hard roped climbing…unfortunately by your logic only (free) soloists are real climbers as they are the only ones doing “real, hard, scary climbing”…well, them and highball boulderers…  

Have any of these boulder bros done anything of significance on a rope???

DWoods has climbed multiple 5.15 sport routes. Based on your comments though I’m guessing those don’t count?

Honnold, Caldwell, Ondra, McCloud, Whittaker, those of this ilk are still the best actual climbers, just so we’re clear. 

You’re so cute. Honnold can barely climb 5.14…there’s a 13 year old team kid who climbs stronger than him 

Actually Honnold has climbed 14d