(Generally) How much to shorten the rope while simulclimbing very easy terrain?

I'm wondering how long of a rope people generally use to simulclimb? I understand this varies based on specific routes/terrain, but just as a general set point? I climb with a 70m, so maybe use half of it for simuling very easy terrain? Thanks for some advice.

I would base the distance between you on the number of pieces you have placed. I like three. In the Flatirons, gear can be sparse, so a 1/3 to 1/2 rope length works. But I’ve also seen teams climbing much closer to each othe when the gear is more frequent. 

I imagine you don't want it long enough for rope drag to be problematic for the leader, but long enough that there is some friction over the rock and through pro so that if the follower falls the leader may barely feel a thing, which people have reported experiencing before... better to use PCDs to isolate of course.

I always use a 60 in Yosemite/Sierras. Tried a 30, but found I ran out of gear too fast trying to keep 3 good pieces in. My rule is generally 3 good ones and a pcd. You get hosed on rope drag sometimes with a 60 on wandering routes if you aren’t running it out a ton, but it has only dead stopped me once on Higher Cathedral Spire.

Thanks everyone. Seems like it’s based more on the availability of good gear rather then strictly the terrain you’re moving through.

Jack Bushwaywrote:

Thanks everyone. Seems like it’s based more on the availability of good gear rather then strictly the terrain you’re moving through.

Since you're based in Sandy, I figure I would mention my experience on the West Slabs of Mt Olympus. I encountered a party with about 10 or 15m of rope out. The leader would be placing a piece as the follower was removing the last one. At some points there was no protection between them. That party was in the higher bit where there's actually some spots for gear. I bring this up to say sometimes a rope (or too short a rope) adds danger and only the illusion of security. 

You want enough rope to add protection without too much drag and sacrificing communication. Longer is typically better in my opinion. It allows you to space the protection more, which you should be okay with if you're simuling that difficulty of terrain. Spacing the gear means fewer transitions. You lose some time at the very start and end of any transition, but you have more options with a longer rope. 

Standard questions that come to mind: Are you going to be simuling terrain where there's any chance you could fall? Does the terrain vary significantly between grades (more than 1 grade diff)? Do you need to rap the route or are you walking off? Experience levels of both climbers?

Highly likely I won't simul if I think there's more than a 1-2% chance I could fall.

If I'm rapping, I likely need/want a longer rope.

In order to simplify things, I'm very likely to run the rope full length, run a thinner rope for less drag, and use radios if necessary.

Also consider taking advantage of the time you're saving and stopping at big ledges to take in the views for a minute and regroup, can be a nice way to still make time, yet really enjoy the climb.

Adam Flemingwrote:

Since you're based in Sandy, I figure I would mention my experience on the West Slabs of Mt Olympus. I encountered a party with about 10 or 15m of rope out. The leader would be placing a piece as the follower was removing the last one. At some points there was no protection between them. That party was in the higher bit where there's actually some spots for gear. I bring this up to say sometimes a rope (or too short a rope) adds danger and only the illusion of security. 

You want enough rope to add protection without too much drag and sacrificing communication. Longer is typically better in my opinion. It allows you to space the protection more, which you should be okay with if you're simuling that difficulty of terrain. Spacing the gear means fewer transitions. You lose some time at the very start and end of any transition, but you have more options with a longer rope. 

Great point. I moved from the northeast where there wasn’t a ton of terrain that wasn’t either just hiking or fully fifth class, so up till recently I hadn’t ever had the experience of using a rope in something other then pitched out climbing. Last fall I did the South Ridge of Superior and (unnecessarily) brought a rope, we used it for about 2 minutes before coming to exactly the point you made: it was creating additional risk rather then lessening it. I can definitely see how simuling with a really small amount of rope out is likely just soloing with some added risk for the leader. Thanks for pointing that out!

Christian Heschwrote:

Standard questions that come to mind: Are you going to be simuling terrain where there's any chance you could fall? Does the terrain vary significantly between grades (more than 1 grade diff)? Do you need to rap the route or are you walking off? Experience levels of both climbers?

Highly likely I won't simul if I think there's more than a 1-2% chance I could fall.

If I'm rapping, I likely need/want a longer rope.

In order to simplify things, I'm very likely to run the rope full length, run a thinner rope for less drag, and use radios if necessary.

Also consider taking advantage of the time you're saving and stopping at big ledges to take in the views for a minute and regroup, can be a nice way to still make time, yet really enjoy the climb.

I don’t plan on simuling anything I could see myself falling off of outside of a freak event. I get the idea of using a whole 60 or 70 to simul but it just seems weird to be so far away from your partner, but I do get that you could do super long pitches that way. Good tip about stopping and enjoying every once in awhile 

I generally take about half the rope in as coils and simul on what’s left, so 30-35m for a typical route.  I find that to be the sweet spot for gear spacing, communication, and rope drag.  Alternatively you can fold a skinny rope in half and simul on both stands.

This isn’t counting situations where you simul at the end of a pitch to allow the leader to reach a better anchor stance or whatever, that is obviously done with the whole rope out.

I only simulclimb on “soloable” terrain as a technique to mitigate the high consequences of a fall in the mountains.  Terrain that is within the “this isn’t soloable” realm gets a real belay.  Generally speaking, of course, exceptions happen in the mountains.

I habitually kiwi-coil for simulclimbing which means we have 1/3 of rope in service, and either climber can feed a coil or several into service fairly rapidly if/when desirable.  This was the protocol we taught in the AMGA back in the eighties when I was guiding.  My standard for protection is to have the equivalent of a belay anchor between climbers, which for most means 2-3 placements.  1/3 rope is usually 20-30 meters, which is good for communication -- communication being the first line of protection in simulclimbing.  Each climber absolutely MUST know what his/her partner is doing at all times.  If communication is an issue, either shorten the rope, or anchor the belay.  And as was pointed out above, don't simulclimb unprotected.  Scottish humorist Tom Patey famously defined a "rope team" as "two climbers falling together".  Our objective is to see that Patey's joke remains a joke!

-Haireball

Thanks!

Thanks everyone. Seems like it’s based more on the availability of good gear rather then strictly the terrain you’re moving through.

I think that over-simplifies it, Jack.

My thoughts: gear, difficulty and situational, all play roles.

One of the most common use cases for me: stretching pitches together on long multi-pitch routes. Leader goes to the end of the rope and just keeps going till she runs out of gear (belay anchor included of course). Could be a pitch and a half, two, three even more if easier. Swap lead, wash rinse repeat. In this mode the rope is long enough to reach the traditional belay points on the route, rope drag notwithstanding.

High ridge climbing in the mountains, shorter certainly reduces rope drag but one can end up with a single piece between the climbers, not optimal as already pointed out. 

Another tactic we use is around difficulty. If there are (for us) difficult moves, leader places pro as per normal. But if at all possible, if there's a chnce that the 2nd can pitch off at the cruxy bit, leader sets belay before follower reaches that bit. And if not, the leader needs to be placing some pro right before the follower reaches the cruxy section. 

I wouldn't willingly use something longer than a 60 for this and even that can be a challenge. Once the leader is all the way out on the rope she's climbing with the full weight of it, plus drag, for the duration. It can be tiring in and of itself. 

But long story short, I want to be able to reach  the anchor on a normal belay spot without the follower having to simul. If I go past that spot, its simul. Keeping going till it makes sense to stop and belay. On mountaineering routes, unless super easy, I prefer the full length mode, but this is the function of the route and terrain more than anything (situational).

This seems odd to me. If you are talking about something easy like a ridge or something I would go for something that allows for communication. Definitly not more than 30m, probably shorter.

I usually coil about half, so probably climbing with 30-35 meters. Any more than that and I often feel like the drag is kind of heinous. But this is particular to terrain because I'm generally doing it on mountain ridges that are wandery, well-featured, and fairly low angle. 

One detail I neglected was how easy it is to quickly anchor and belay a single dicey move now and then in generally easy terrain.  when 20 meters apart, that's close enough for one to ask for a quick belay for a move or two.  In fact in addition to the kiwi coil, I simulclimb with my belay device always threaded so that I can provide an instant belay when requested.  This protocol has resulted in some very fast ascents without having to actually "climb fast".

-Haireball

Curt Hairewrote:

One detail I neglected was how easy it is to quickly anchor and belay a single dicey move now and then in generally easy terrain.  when 20 meters apart, that's close enough for one to ask for a quick belay for a move or two.  In fact in addition to the kiwi coil, I simulclimb with my belay device always threaded so that I can provide an instant belay when requested.  This protocol has resulted in some very fast ascents without having to actually "climb fast".

-Haireball

Thanks yeah, I think the pre threaded grigri is a great idea for the second 

Pitch length and terrain dictate how to dial in the rope length. Choss Boys have a good discussion on there website.