Strange rumblings in EPC

I generally don’t believe news from people who don’t use their real names. Unless you really like biting dogs and your parents were sorta dicks, then my bad.

John Clarkwrote:

I generally don’t believe news from people who don’t use their real names. Unless you really like biting dogs and your parents were sorta dicks, then my bad.

This - the whole narrative seems a bit off.  Like to hear actual confirmation

It”s interesting that there have been a couple of “hit pieces” on Potrero in the last week.  This one, all dark and mysterious, and the guy saying it was “dangerous for climbers” and not to go there.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/123724395/potrero-chico-traveler-s-advisory#ForumMessage-123730423

I wonder what the agenda might be?.

Randy Zzyzxwrote:

The conversation I had with my source was specific to Hidalgo and did not include a "nearby small town." I'd also add that "raising money to build a school" is not the same as actually building a school.

Here are a couple of sources that illustrate El Buho's involvement in building the school:

"The Café staff work up to 40 hours a week without compensation and still pay rent for the entire six months of the climbing season. (This is so that all the café’s proceeds go towards the construction of the school in Mission.)"

https://www.thewanderingclimber.com/el-buho-cafe-el-potrero-chico-mexico/

"In recent years, all profits from shop sales have gone towards constructing a middle school in a nearby town to Hidalgo."

-- El Buho manager

I also know several former El Buho staff who talked to me about physically participating in the construction of that school in the town of Mission. Hidalgo already had a school and apparently Mission didn't, so El Buho contributed to where there was a need.

A quick scan of the El Buho Facebook shows that they are building more classrooms onto the same new school, which is now at capacity.

Russ Wallingwrote:

It”s interesting that there have been a couple of “hit pieces” on Potrero in the last week.  This one, all dark and mysterious, and the guy saying it was “dangerous for climbers” and not to go there.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/123724395/potrero-chico-traveler-s-advisory#ForumMessage-123730423

I wonder what the agenda might be?.

As pointed out, the person who created the thread Russ mentions joined MP Feb. 5, 2023.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/123724395/potrero-chico-traveler-s-advisory#ForumMessage-123730423

Randy Zzyzxwrote:

 

*Quick edit since people are asking more questions about El Buho:

From what I gathered, El Buho is not seen in good light by the community of Hidalgo. When it was first opened by an American Christian leader, they committed to the community to build a school and other contributions, none of which ever happened. One of the complaints by one of my local sources was that they are running an unpermitted business, or at least "operating outside of what they're permitted for while officials look the other way." 

How is this harmful to locals? Outsiders (religious gringos) open a business with religious association, sell a product at a price that the local population cannot afford all while contributing nothing to the local community. Why should climbers or tourists care about this? I suppose it comes down to ethics. Who you give your money to and what businesses you choose to support have short-term and long-term effects on any community. If coffee is your thing, try to source your coffee from a Hidalgo business that's a part of the community, if you can't find one, bring your own.

____

People may have their opinions, but I tried to present the facts of the situation to the best of my ability. 

Also, there is a limit to replying (5 a day) and I've exceeded that limit today.

So pretty much everything you wrote is factually wrong.

I, for one, would appreciate the silence on Sundays when the locals come out & blast their music through the canyon. I wouldn't mind as much if they all picked 1 radio station or playlist and turn it up to 11 but when everyone decides to play their own music to share with everyone, I can't hear their song, other dude's song, my climber or my belayer. There was a point where I couldn't even hear myself think.

Russ Wallingwrote:

It”s interesting that there have been a couple of “hit pieces” on Potrero in the last week.  This one, all dark and mysterious, and the guy saying it was “dangerous for climbers” and not to go there.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/123724395/potrero-chico-traveler-s-advisory#ForumMessage-123730423

I wonder what the agenda might be?.

I have no agenda, and this is certainly not a "hit piece" on Potrero. Climber safety was never mentioned in my post because it is not an issue, and this thread is not about bringing to question anything regarding the safety of foreign visitors/tourists/climbers. If anything you've just perpetuated that falsehood by sharing that thread.

I posted this on MountainProject because after talking to several local business owners and Hidalgo residents, it was the only way I knew how to help and bring awareness to the climbing community about the unjust changes in Potrero Chico and the how and why they were put in place. 

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

So pretty much everything you wrote is factually wrong.

You want facts? Here are a couple.

Let's go over what I was told and wrote and cross-reference them with the information Fritz posted from various websites and assume he is posting facts. 

1) Their employees don't get paid. 

F r i t z wrote:

"The Café staff work up to 40 hours a week without compensation and still pay rent for the entire six months of the climbing season. (This is so that all the café’s proceeds go towards the construction of the school in Mission.)"

Fact: Their employees don't get paid. Not paying employees is a great way to bar locals from working in your business among other things. 

2) El Buho's leadership committed to building a school in Hidalgo and did not.

F r i t z wrote:

I also know several former El Buho staff who talked to me about physically participating in the construction of that school in the town of Mission. Hidalgo already had a school and apparently Mission didn't, so El Buho contributed to where there was a need.

Fact: They did not build a school in Hidalgo. If a business was allowed to operate in your community with the promise of building a school and failed to fulfill that promise and instead built one in a "nearby town", how would you feel? Does your neighborhood or town not have more than one school? I can't help to point out the coincidence that, according to what Fritz posted, they happen to find a town named Mission to build a school. How convenient. 

Facts.

This post was not meant to focus on El Buho. However, like I stated before, I mentioned it because it was brought up to me and I thought people visiting EPC/Hidalgo should know. I don't have an agenda, but you better believe these people do.

Randy Zzyzxwrote:

2) El Buho's leadership committed to building a school in Hidalgo and did not.

The first article I posted clearly states that the founders of El Buho wanted to build a school in Mission, and this was before the coffeeshop had even opened:

At the time, the pastors at their church dreamt of building the middle school that Mission so desperately needed. Gena and Andrew realized they could also use a coffee shop to raise money to make this dream come true.

 And thus, El Búho Café was born.

 I don't have an agenda

ok then

F r i t zwrote:

The first article I posted clearly states that the founders of El Buho wanted to build a school in Mission, and this was before the coffeeshop had even opened

So which is it? First you claimed the school was built in Mission because there was already one in Hidalgo, and now you’re saying it was planned from the very beginning to fulfill a dream. Right.

And thanks for deleting your post quote about me protesting too much, I didn’t think it was good either. I’m done with El Buho topic. 

ManBitesDog wrote:  "Oh, and that unsightly, overpriced Hotel Lemuria is also in-partnership with Rancho El Sendero."

I thought we were dealing in facts?  "Unsightly" is subjective at best and "overpriced" depends on where you buy your purses.   The alleged partnership with Sendero is the only thing that might be a fact, though yet unproven.  Defense rests.

I wonder how the whole Kurt Smith thing would’ve played out on Mp if it existed at the time.

Randy Zzyzxwrote:

And thanks for deleting your post quote about me protesting too much, I didn’t think it was good either. I’m done with El Buho topic. 

Well, not everyone gets Shakespeare. ;-)

Moving on from your intriguing vendetta against the Owl, I am interested in your main point.

 Since you're posting under a pseudonym with a limited profile, it might serve you well to provide some background as to how long you've spent in EPC, and maybe invite some respected figures to corroborate your story. Right now it's all pretty nebulous.

In my extended stays at EPC several years ago, I was pleased to find the area very local-Mexican-feeling. Not resorty or sanitized for Americans at all. I hope it remains that way for some time.

Russ Wallingwrote:

I thought we were dealing in facts?  "Unsightly" is subjective at best and "overpriced" depends on where you buy your purses.   The alleged partnership with Sendero is the only thing that might be a fact, though yet unproven.  Defense rests.

Hahahahaha man, this really did feel like I was on trial though

F r i t z wrote:

Since you're posting under a pseudonym with a limited profile, it might serve you well to provide some background as to how long you've spent in EPC, and maybe invite some respected figures to corroborate your story. Right now it's all pretty nebulous.

In my extended stays at EPC several years ago, I was pleased to find the area very local-Mexican-feeling. Not resorty or sanitized for Americans at all. I hope it remains that way for some time.

Glad we could move past that and get back to the main point. No hard feelings Fritz.  

I've been going to EPC since 2018 and over the years have gotten to know some of the local business owners and residents. I am Mexican-American and speak Spanish, which does make it a lot easier to build a rapport. As far as my pseudonym and limited profile, I actually removed my name and any identifiers from my profile to post this. Call me paranoid, but I just want to protect my anonymity and those I spoke to, which is why I didn't name any people. I'd say what difference would it make if I did have my name anyway? I'm no one special with no authority and I'm no journalist, it would have added nothing, plus half the people on here use pseudonyms. As to bringing some respected figures to corroborate, I don't know how exactly I'd do that. They don't speak English or have MP accounts, I don't even know the extent of their computer operating experience.     

The area is still very local-mexican-feeling and not resorty, but this year there were some very clear changes. These changes struck me as odd and something just felt off. After getting back into town I asked some people from there what they thought, and they weren't happy. They were pretty pissed. It wasn't just a few people. That's when I started hearing about how Rancho El Sendero was involved. Policies like the one currently in place, I believe, is an attempt to sanitize it for North Americans. Some people may agree with this new policy, there are some on this thread saying some might see it as "cleaning up the place" or those that "appreciate the silence." My point is, the local people (those of the state of Nuevo Leon, Monterrey and surrounding areas) have the right to enjoy EPC the way they have been for decades, before the droves of climbers. If the loud noise really bothers one so much that you can't communicate or think, get some walkies or get into Tarahumara Pass where its secluded. Plenty of climbing there. Posting on MP was the only thing I knew I could do to at least let climbers know what's going on. You can dismiss me as another loon on the internet, but I encourage anyone visiting EPC this season to look into it. 

Isn't the whole purpose of tourist areas in Mexico to extract money from gringos? EPC is a tourist area, its NOT some hidden gem anymore. It will become a resort. Too many people requires management.

grug gwrote:

Isn't the whole purpose of tourist areas in Mexico to extract money from gringos? 

You could certainly argue that point. I'm all for EPC businesses ran by locals making money off tourists, but that's not what this is about. I know this thread has had some wild twists and turns so far, so let me bring it back for you. This is about one specific business (two actually) operated by an active politician using their political influence to set a park policy in place to eliminate local competition for the benefit of their business. If you're ok with that, man, I don't know what to tell you. 

The workers at El Buho are not paid because they consider working here as short term missionaries  serving the climbing community with hospitality, happiness and love. They have to raise their own funds for lodging, food , everything so all the profits can go to their causes. Probably more than you know. These people usually don’t go about bragging what they do for Christ.. I have been going for six years and have found nothing but positive things from El Búho. Better dig into your facts a little bit more and find out from people who have been blessed by them. This was a pretty cruel hit and not factual.

Randy Zzyzxwrote: As to bringing some respected figures to corroborate, I don’t know how exactly I’d do that.

Should have started the post by clearly stating how many First Ascents you have, and the numerous amounts of time you’ve spent developing in the area.

As they say, “Developer butts, drive goats nuts.”

Hilarious jokes aside, I appreciate the information you are sharing with the American climbing community. Don’t let the contrarian points of few dissuade you from standing up for what you believe in. 

Hey there, my name is Melissa. I have been going to EPC for several consecutive seasons. Leaving my last name off because I don’t want employers finding my personal posts but not hiding behind a veil of anonymity either. I feel the need to chime in here because this misinformation directly and unjustly harms individuals and local businesses. 

To the OP- I have some questions. Did you talk to anyone who runs El Buho? Did you talk to Mario? How representative was the sample population you spoke to? Have you collected enough information that you would stand behind these defamatory statements with your own name?

Some fact checking on your statements.

1. Registration is obligatory for climbers only, not non climbers or locals. Also, as a member of the EPC volunteer rescue team, efficiency of rescue efforts has drastically improved this season with the new changes - particularly related to the local government providing onsite EMS support.
2. You might not have seen locals blasting music or drinking alcohol in their public park. But you know what I saw? More local families around and more young children playing. In a recent year, a child walking on the sidewalk was killed by a drunk driver exiting the canyon after partying. Prior to the climbing season this year and in years past, the town also had problems with violence/fights/other issues related to partying in the canyon. Hidalgo is not simply comprised of businesses and a legal system that revolves around climbers. Climbers are present only a small part of the year. There is tourism beyond just climbing, especially in the summer including folks traveling from Monterey (see the pool complex for example). 
3. Mario was previously involved in state politics, not recently. Only recently did he get a position as a councilman for the town. And why would he open a hostel in a “tiny town outside of a bustling capital”? Because he was born and raised in Hidalgo, and spent his entire life there. I have witnessed their business from the very beginning, when there wasn’t working showers and only a tiny kitchen for a full season. But their genuine love and support for the climbing community is what caused their business to thrive. It took them several years, hard work and dedication to build that business. If you really think Mario’s recent political engagement is some covert campaign to sabotage all other businesses in the economy (ie. the restaurants by the canyon) so their already thriving business can grow (the Rancho restaurant  and bar is hardly their main focus and not really used much, I see way more climbers at Leo’s or Checo’s on any given night) I think you’ve been fed a false narrative. Mario and his family have housed injured and sick climbers without charge, provided holiday meals, among countless other acts of compassion. They show up to the canyon when there is an accident and help in anyway they can, give free food to trail building crews. They have truly created Rancho from the ground up alongside their local employees (shoutout to Lorena, Jose, Michele,  etc), and organically developed a thriving customer base that returns every year because of the authentic home they have created. 
4. I seldom saw locals getting drinks at the businesses near the canyon even several years ago during climbing season. You know how you can truly support local businesses and inhibit the centralization of gringo tourism near the canyon? Go down into town. Go to Leo’s. Go to nearby towns, like Mina and El Carmen - they have great restaraunts and local shops too. Tell everyone to learn Spanish and convert their USD to pesos, and stop bringing stockpiles of Whole Foods groceries (and coffee!) for their trip if you really wanna support the local economy and connect with the local community.
5. You have grossly misrepresented El Buho. First off, the local Mexicans are religious too, not just gringos. El Buho has in fact given all its proceeds towards the construction of a school in the nearby town of Mission, as it did not have a middle school and is significantly poorer than Hidalgo (not because it is coincidentally titled “mission”…). Climbers and El Buho staff alike have built that school from the ground up with their bare hands. They are now supporting the school staff, and exploring other means of helping the neighboring communities. El Buho employees choose to work there without pay as missionaries btw, and many return for multiple seasons because they want to be there. El Buho staff have taken locals from Hidalgo (as well as Mission) climbing many times, and have actively worked to bridge the gap between climbers and the local town. That is precisely why they chose their location farther from the canyon - to get climbers out of the campground area and into the actual town. This is the complete opposite of “homogenization”. (I will mention here that I have no affiliation with El Buho, nor any religion for the matter.)

People are entitled to their opinions, both foreigners and locals alike. The new changes might not be perfectly executed in a way that makes everyone 100% satisfied. But you can’t find the “truth” with a limited sample size - with this you risk skewed data. Also, local communities have rich political and social histories, cultural subgroups, and park user groups (eg hikers vs caballeros vs Monterey families on vacation vs older folks and younger folks)  that are near impossible to understand as an outsider, that inform in the most nuanced  of ways the local activities, motivations, and perspectives regarding the goings on in the town. Let alone an outsider that is not present for the happenings of the town year around. 

Regardless of your opinion, you should not spread misinformation and slander on public platforms that could be detrimental to the livelihood of others.