Trango Vergo - the GriGri slayer?

Don Frijoles wrote:

Dude, there's a video in this thread, multiple credible reports, and an investigation report by a professional that designs belay devices for a living. The investigation was prompted by a "large number of unexplained failures."

But it hasn't happened to you, so therefore all that other data is BS.

The video you're referring to doesn't use a brake hand, so unless you're willing to admit the GriGri has an equally bad failure mode based on the video I posted, your argument there is moot. The creator of the video has said has much too. That is, unless you believe distracted belaying while not using a brake hand while turning your entire body away from your climber is good form LOL

"multiple credible reports" = "a bunch of internet strangers"

Which "investigation"?

Don Frijoles wrote:

Jim Titt's post on page 1 describes his investigation. Do you know who he is? This thread should have ended with his post.

I just reread Jim's post. It worth reading it again, since the post had nothing to do with failures related to 'verog/cinch like' device, it focused on the mechanics of cam rope interaction.

Here is the quote -

At that time I was commissioned to investigate it's braking characteristics in relation to a similar proposed device. We ran about 200 drop tests on the Cinch up to 30m drops and did some high-speed videos of what happens internally to make sense of what happens.

The drop testing told us that in slow-speed falls ( short drops) the device gave the hardest stop of any device we ever tested but in longer falls it's performance dropped dramatically whereas the GriGri is the opposite.

Would nice to understand what "performance dropped dramatically" implies.

Don Frijoles wrote:

Man there is some serious misunderstanding in this thread of what "assisted" means.

Assisted doesn't mean it makes it easier to catch with the hand on the rope and proper braking action. Yes it will do that, but that's not important. If assisted only applied when proper braking technique was used, there would be no need for assisted devices: just use an ATC type device. An ATC doesn't need an assist if you brake properly. Outside of a severe fall factor fall, one that can't even happen in single pitch climbing, there's no need for "assisted" braking if you brake correctly.

Assisted belay device means it will usually catch even if you don't have your hand on the rope. It's insurance. 

So why are they called "assisted" and not "automatic." Because no manufacturer wants to make the claim that they are automatic. But in reality the only reason to use an assisted device is because it can be automatic if the belayer fails to brake. 

So when the belayer is knocked unconscious and they are using a vergo, hopefully their limp body wont be turned sideways....

For Jared E, internet stranger: Jim Titt's post on page 1 describes his investigation. Do you know who he is? This thread should have ended with his post.

Yeah, I know .... "I never got vaxxed and didn't personally die of covid, therefore..."

Any misunderstanding of what an assisted braking device is, and what it's meant to do, is solely coming from you. 

Reasons to use an ABD vs. tube on single pitch: It is easier to catch a fall with an assisted braking device, this does not mean you can or should ever remove your hand from the brake strand. Both the GG and the Vergo have no-brake-hand failure modes as has been discussed in this thread. It's easier to hold someone hangdogging with an assisted breaking device. You can ascend a rope with some assisted braking devices. Lowering and rappeling is easier to control with braking devices. There's plenty of reasons not to use a tube style device when single pitch climbing that don't involve relying on the device to catch falls on its own without a brake hand.

Assisted belay devices will typically catch a fall without a brake hand. This is true of both the vergo and GG. 

Ah, Jim Titts investigation, which was done on a different belay device. Neat.

amariuswrote:

I just reread Jim's post. It worth reading it again, since the post had nothing to do with failures related to 'verog/cinch like' device, it focused on the mechanics of cam rope interaction.

Here is the quote -

Would nice to understand what "performance dropped dramatically" implies.

It means it can no longer be considered to be a belay device in the sense we normally understand it.

Don Frijoles wrote:

It's pretty clear at this point that you aren't even reading his posts. "In the Cinch/Vergo design..."

The manufacturer changed the name without materially changing the way the device works. It's like Ford kept selling the Pinto, but changed the name.

There are so many good choices out there, why would anyone choose something that when tested by a professional was "no longer be considered to be a belay device in the sense we normally understand it" ?

It's possible there are still a few Pintos out there on the road, with loyal owners that haven't been barbecued yet.

https://blog.trango.com/trango-vergo-questions-answered/

Don Frijoles wrote:

The company that is selling the product says everything is cool with the product. Neat.

Here’s what we know.

In favor of the Vergo:

- tested to EN 15151-1 standards

- no reported injuries or deaths

- company claims various design/functional changes from the cinch 

- video proof of a position-specific failure mode discussed in this thread only applying when no break hand is held (same problem a GriGri can suffer from)

against the vergo:

- Sporadic reports of climbers falling farther than expected (certain cases being blatant user error)

- Jim Titt says so, because he conducted an investigation on an older iteration of the technology. By the way, can we stop appealing to authority, here? If Jim is so sure, then he should test the vergo itself and share the data and methodology. 

I test when people pay, it's a job for me  and anyone can use whatever device they choose.

If you are in either of the two camps of “the Vergo is the kiss of death” or “it is god’s belay device” just make sure to self identify to your partner. I don’t think it’s a big deal to ask someone to use a different device if it makes you uncomfortable, and to use a different device if asked.

I’m the reason this thread got resurrected and I’m glad I did it because I learned how to use the device better and what I did wrong. I don’t think the device needs to be pulled from shelves.

If anything I think trango just needs to be more clear in advertising the sensitivities of the device. When you watch their promotional videos it’s all about “how hard it is to screw this thing up”. They advertise it as an incredibly ergonomic device and put an ergo groove next to the thumb pad that is similar to the ergo groove for your finger on the other side of the device. That doesn’t make it inherently unsafe but IMHO it makes it more prone to misuse. Just throwing a disclaimer about reading the manual or ask a professional doesn’t make that go away.

I hope all the discussion has helped fill that gap so more people who use the device, use it correctly and can be cognizant of its sensitivities.

I still have a pre-recall vergo for those partners who need a riskier belay. 

Phil Sakievichwrote:

If you are in either of the two camps of “the Vergo is the kiss of death” or “it is god’s belay device” just make sure to self identify to your partner. I don’t think it’s a big deal to ask someone to use a different device if it makes you uncomfortable, and to use a different device if asked.

I’m the reason this thread got resurrected and I’m glad I did it because I learned how to use the device better and what I did wrong. I don’t think the device needs to be pulled from shelves.

If anything I think trango just needs to be more clear in advertising the sensitivities of the device. When you watch their promotional videos it’s all about “how hard it is to screw this thing up”. They advertise it as an incredibly ergonomic device and put an ergo groove next to the thumb pad that is similar to the ergo groove for your finger on the other side of the device. That doesn’t make it inherently unsafe but IMHO it makes it more prone to misuse. Just throwing a disclaimer about reading the manual or ask a professional doesn’t make that go away.

I hope all the discussion has helped fill that gap so more people who use the device, use it correctly and can be cognizant of its sensitivities.

I don’t think there’s any one belay device that does it all. The grigri probably is among the safest of all belay devices, but it’s chonky, heavy, cams at annoying times, and has iffy performance in some conditions. The alpine up is amazing with dual and thin ropes and negates the need for a third hand during rappel, but is hot garbage with thick and stiff ropes. The vergo had the best belay technique of any device I’ve ever used, and it plays best with all varieties of rope. It can also be installed on and ascend a tensioned rope. But, it’s heavy and its predecessor has a checkered history. I could go on and on all day about each and every device

Phil Sakievichwrote:

New life goal: Belay like you’re Jake Jones. 

LMAO Phil!  Just saw this- I realize it's almost an internet eternity later.  Sorry.  No one should ever seek to climb like me, but I gotta say, everyone should belay like me.

FWIW I've met at least 5 people who have been dropped on a Grigri.

As for the Vergo, I have one and use it, but what I really wanted was a Cinch for skinny ropes and didn't get it