New and Experienced climbers over 50 #23

Brandt Allenwrote:

Hey Guy, Your name came up in the conversation yesterday (only in a good way of course.) Larry might join the City of Rocks get-together in June and we're hoping you could make it too.

Yea…. I mentioned it to him -he has the new sprinter. We are both retired now so probably no issues with time. When I have been there I never stayed at CG, I prefer the free camping along the dirt road, up in the pinion pines. Idaho Climbers Coalition maintains some Porta Johns- in pristine condition- there. I just mail them a check to say Thanks. I’ll need to talk with him.
Mark - have fun skiing. I might give skiing a try this spring- it’s been 25 years but I think I can remember how to do it. The PT is really starting to work- I can bend both legs now!
Carl- enjoy the hot weather! I find that hot weather lets me climb better because I loosen up a lot more, just put me in the shade and promise me a post ice cold one and I’ll try really hard to send.
I hope everyone gets out- hot rock or ice or gym - just do it!! 

My idea of great conditions. Spring skiing in t-shirts. Mammoth will be good to go till “Forth of you lie”… 

Carl Schneiderwrote:

Some pics from climbing the other day on Australia day (Jan 26) and at the gym today.

.

This one looks like it has a hard and unprotected start.

Guy Keeseewrote:

 The PT is really starting to work- I can bend both legs now!
Carl- enjoy the hot weather! I find that hot weather lets me climb better because I loosen up a lot more, just put me in the shade and promise me a post ice cold one and I’ll try really hard to send.
I hope everyone gets out- hot rock or ice or gym - just do it!! 

Great progress!  Keep it up!!
I hear you Guy, climbing in cool temps. low humidity, with sun on can't be beat EXCEPT for the warm up part,
I tend to be stiff in the morning so there have been many days of chasing sun in the morning and the opposite in the afternoon! :) 

S. Neohwrote:

This one looks like it has a hard and unprotected start.

Yep, that’s the grade 23 (5.11d) I’ve been trying. We stick clip the first bolt but you can still hit the deck trying to clip the second, especially if you try and do it like I did in this video.

I agree the joints feel better in warmer weather.  My knees are generally very bad   

https://youtu.be/CKTL4yef6-4

I think I may have found a workaround to all this wind and freezing temperatures. We have a window that gets huge sun all day long. I planted seeds for four different kinds of tomatoes and I have this small one already growing so maybe this is the way to start a bumper crop of tomatoes this year. Jan will you be growing tomatoes?

I am really disappointed that we have no nursery in the entire high desert. What we have is Home Depot and those are the sickest saddest most chewed up plants I have ever seen. I was pretty spoiled to have two or three beautiful nurseries up in the Sacramento area where every plant was perfect and the folks who worked there loved what they did. There is one nursery in Palm Springs but as pretty as it is a similar quality of actual plants. 

if you are referring to Green Acres, i agree!

I spent 20 years driving to Eisley’s for all my gardening needs… I felt like I should have stock in that place. Then one day they said… you know, Green Acres just opened and they’re closer to you.  Wonderful places, even if just to stroll around to cure a blue mood. I used to take my little dog Poppy and load up on flowers at Green Acres.

I do miss my garden. I miss a lot of things but I knew there would be trade offs in this move. I don’t regret a thing.    

So it’s a bumpy road to recovery. Most of you can skip this post. I guess I’m in the midst of some personal angst – – questioning whether I will ever be really strong and healthy again. Something rgold alluded to a number of times is that we do have limits. I’m still not sure where mine are.  

If I do take an honest look back I will admit that the last year climbing for me lost a lot of its joy just because of the exhaustion I was dealing with at increasing levels. I wish I would have been able to see what that was telling me. When you’re in the middle of it it’s hard to see the particulars. But despite all my digging and research I really didn’t have any solutions.  

So I pulled out a book that I purchased in 2018 called Roar by Dr. Stacy Sims. She has the credentials to back up what she writes and I am re-reading her guidelines for female athletes and females non-athletes.  I love her premise that “women are not small men“ and her statement that most of the research and testing that has been done on diet and nutrition, supplements and even drugs is done on men. There was a huge disparity even in women during their cycles their hormone levels and all into menopause etc.

 For starters Sims recommends 1.2 to 1.5 g of protein per pound of body weight and I’m seeing these same recommendations now everywhere. That’s a hell of a lot of protein and much more than I’ve ever managed. this morning I read her current guidelines on hydration. If you’re outside exercising in temperatures under 70° you would be drinking 12 to 15 ounces of electrolyte water per hour. If it’s over 80° it’s way more than that. So another thing that could use improvement for me. 

Some thing I’ve been very interested in is iron and I have no explanation for how I lost so much of mine. But apparently this is not unusual for women who exercise a lot. There’s just a vast difference in how I felt about climbing a year ago when my iron levels were perfect and now when they are half of what they should be.  

So I will continue on with the work at hand but I have no idea the odds as a woman of almost 70 ever being able to really climb like I want. I really envy those here who just do their thing and never have to give it a thought. I was pretty devastated that my last iron test showed an actual drop in ferritin, stored iron. I was shooting for 125 and mine dropped from 59 to 53–despite me taking all the iron I can handle.  What I was told is that the body handles iron in a very specific Priority. Where  exercise siphons  body stores to replenishes blood, hair, skin, heart and only after all those levels are optimal does it start putting iron back into storage or ferritin. In the meantime if you’re doing hard physical work during that process you just deplete your stores even more.  So I will continue to eat a lot of rib roasts and spinach and take a lot of iron and hope for the best.

Guy Keeseewrote:

Mark - have fun skiing. I might give skiing a try this spring- it’s been 25 years but I think I can remember how to do it. The PT is really starting to work- I can bend both legs now!

I went skiing for the first time in 25 years last season.  Took about 1 run to remember how to do it.  Scariest part was getting on the lift for the first time.  

Lori - That protein recommendation seems crazy even for an Olympic weightlifter. Are you sure it isn't 1.2-1.5 g per kilogram of body weight?

My hunch is that Brant is correct on this. Not only is that a huge amount of protein, but it would not be normal mix the weight measurement scales: grams of protein to pounds of body weight.

I hear you but this is what she said.    

She spends several chapters on why, and the studies that support it.  

—-

Meanwhile. A year or more ago I sought the help of Ben Tzeel, a Registered Dietician and Type 1 Diabetic athlete.  From the outset he has focused on protein, setting my target at 100 grams daily.  I rarely have come close but now I’m going to give it my best effort.  I think I’m finally convinced that I need more protein than I suspected.  

I wrote to Ben after climbing with Bob on Friday.  I guesstimated that I had consumed 40 grams of protein for the day.  His response:

Climbing - I am STOKED you took the plunge and went! YOU WENT FOR FIVE HOURS. How awesome is that? While you are sore and exhausted, from a mental standpoint, you just pushed FAR past what limits you likely had in your brain before...which is incredible.  The soreness and exhaustion are likely from underfueling - think about the calorie expenditure from climbing for 5 hours, plus getting there, back, etc, and 40g of protein likely would have been enough to cover a couple hours of climbing, let alone needs for the rest of the day (just to live, breathe, and function), so that comes to me as no surprise - we just gotta get the recovery process started up and you should be ok! 

#1. Post outing recovery - eat. a LOT. Not to say go crazy all the time, but for an activity of extended duration, you're looking at eating FAR more than an average day, or your body is going to be looking for fuel sources and will break down body fat and protein stores (muscle). Personally, I plan on eating a crazy dinner or meal after a long day of activity (i.e. lifting and kayaking) - I'll sometimes eat 2500+ calories in a single sitting! I'm also a dude, so it's a bit different, but the point is: you'll need to eat far more than 40g of protein. If on an avg day, youre eating 1500, you may need to eat 2500+ for the entire day, and smoothies would be helpful if the food volume is too much. Hydration is also paramount for success there too, so keep that in mind - hydration including water AND electrolytes.

Day after -I would definitely fuel up! And today too, since two days out you may be even MORE sore than the day after (delayed onset muscle soreness- yay). That, plus stretching/flexibility work would be the keys! Water replenishment is also major key too.”

So I guess my takeaway is that I cannot casually expect to climb frequently and hard without giving full attention to food.  I don’t know how many grams of protein in cheesecake but this will not fly as the mainstay of a high-protein diet (HELEN).  

I have also seen recommendations of .8 g / kilogram of body weight… but has since been debunked by a John’s Hopkins study.  Regardless… we are all so different with different body needs.  I’m just trying to map out what I need to keep doing what I want to do.  We’ll see how it goes.  

I think one can overthink all that nutrition stuff. I basically binge eat, some days after climbing I’ll eat huge amounts and sometimes hardly anything. I never take notice of him much protein I’m eating but I do eat a lot of turkey and chicken and I eat eggs.
I really only eat two meals a day. I have half of what my wife packs me for lunch ((which is what we had for dinner last night) when I get to work at 0830 and the other half about 1100. Then I’ll have dinner at about 7. I drink maybe less than a pint of water a day. And I average maybe four cans of beer a day during a week and six a day on weekends. I basically do everything ‘wrong’. 

Todd Berlier wrote:

i too worry about protein of that volume. it use to be 25 to 35 g/day. agree with Lori that that is what is being recommended; but i worry that our kidneys cannot handle that much urea (ammonia)--a 4 to 8 fold increase. my hunch is that for performance that much protein is beneficial,  but that we are going to see tons more athletes on dialysis later in life. maybe im just resistant to change, but it feels wrong to me.

Todd, agreed. And I don’t want to derail the conversation with something so extreme. As Carl said above he doesn’t even think about it. He just does his thing. Helen does fine on cheesecake. I know Brandt is vegetarian, maybe even vegan? And he’s strong and healthy.  And I suspect most of you big strong dudes cook up a steak when you feel like it and do what you want.

I started workouts so late in life and kept feeling blindsided by deep fatigue and other symptoms anytime I climbed or went to the gym. As a type one diabetic I also learned that’s a bit of a handicap in terms of how we metabolize food and use proteins and carbs. But I started to realize that on the days I would climb at the gym lunch had to be a big corn beef sandwich or a slice of roast beef – – I mean there had to be some meat. Otherwise don’t even bother showing up at the gym because I would be worthless. It just never occurred to me to make a study of it but now I wish I had. 

So I am not interested in eating 150 g of protein but 100 wouldn’t be a bad idea on climbing days and those following. Right now I am my own petri dish and the only metrics I will have will be how I feel and how I recover with certain ratios of nutrients. The thing that has stood out lately is when I do feel that collapse and look back over the previous 24 hours inevitably I just haven’t eaten enough and I haven’t eaten the right stuff. I may always have to “overthink it” if I want to stay active. Work in progress.    

Lori. if you want to actually have fun and enjoy climbing at an advanced age you would do well to learn to love easy climbs. Very few of us are like Ward. cant get much better than this for sunny rock by the ocean and its only 5.6

or 5.6 in COR

 5.6 in the Needles

Lori Milaswrote:

I hear you but this is what she said.    

I don't think this is horribly off target for a young professional athlete who is training for peak performance in their sport.  But neither you nor I are young or come even close to the level of output of a professional athlete.  MOST of your and my days out climbing or training days would be the level of output of a "light" day in the chart above, compared to an athlete.  0.8 gms/pound for me at 130 pounds is 100 gm protein per day.  Thats not too far off what I would get from a typical day.  lunch for me - fresh fruit protein shake with 100 cal yogurt/20gm protein + 1 scoop protein powder 25 gm protein, so 45 gm protein at lunch.  Typically if I'm going to the gym, I do that after breakfast (my only high carb meal) and have the shake after my workout.  Dinner is typically stir fried veggies, a veggie packed soup or a huge salad, all of those typically supplemented with chicken.  Chicken has about 8 gms protein per oz, and 4-6 oz is my typical portion size.  6 oz is 48 gm protein, so between lunch and dinner that's close to 100 gm.  I'm really fairly strong for my age, I'm definitely getting enough protein.

I can have very long climbing days out with large numbers of feet climbed.  Those days I start the day with bagel and 2 eggs, some kind of protein bar for lunch and dinner when I get back.  Those days I may very well run a protein deficit but my performance is better off I don't eat too much while out climbing.

As for hydration, I take and consume close to a half- gallon of fluid while I am outdoors all day climbing. I start my day with 24 oz cup of decaf tea (giant) and end my day with a giant cup of herb tea. On non-outdoor days, total consumption probable around a quart less.

I have a friend in 50s who is close to a pro level cyclist.  I ask her what her daily protein is.

Edited because I was typing too fast, half gallon bot gallon. I carry two 32 oz bottles. 

Nick - Loved that last batch of photos, especially the first one. Looking very casual on that route. How fun!

Lori, my credit card and I can testify to the stupendous quantity of food my ice climbing buddy packs away the evening before!   

Hey Nick, great pics, as always! What are the COR routes? You have different angles than the usual, no surprise there! I've always enjoyed your work on here, btw. Thanks for sharing it!

I'm getting a second round of the local food this Tuesday, but only select things. A couple soups, and her take on veggie tacos. Should be interesting! I just got the rest of the first stuff portioned out and in the freezer, so I can get her containers washed out for pickup on Tuesday. Trying to decide between making myself fried rice tonight, or trying out her salad that involves warm red rice and cold salady stuff.

It's cold here. The little birds just outside the window are entirely spherical, lol! 

Best, Helen

Brandt Allenwrote:

Nick - Loved that last batch of photos, especially the first one. Looking very casual on that route. How fun!

Totally, Nick.  Spot on.  Climbing for the love of it.  Keeping things simple.
Ward is 1 in 100,000 if not 1 in a milion.

Carl Schneiderwrote:

I think one can overthink all that nutrition stuff. I basically binge eat, some days after climbing I’ll eat huge amounts and sometimes hardly anything. I never take notice of him much protein I’m eating but I do eat a lot of turkey and chicken and I eat eggs.
I really only eat two meals a day. I have half of what my wife packs me for lunch ((which is what we had for dinner last night) when I get to work at 0830 and the other half about 1100. Then I’ll have dinner at about 7. I drink maybe less than a pint of water a day. And I average maybe four cans of beer a day during a week and six a day on weekends. I basically do everything ‘wrong’. 

Now this fucking makes sense.  Eating giraffe to look more like Ondra, the fraud Liver King diet, all the woofuckery... it's hogwash.  No water, plenty of beer, and some meat and eggs is the ticket. Same program I've been on for better than 40 years of cragging, and I assure you, I'm a specimen.  Numerous college labs are bidding on my carcass right now, just itching for some post mortem action.