ATC ban

Does your gym provide belay devices for customers to use?

Summit in DFW area is jumping on the ATC ban as well. 

Maybe it's just me, but when I first went to a gym in the 90s. They made you learn with an atc. It taught good technique and you understood the consequences of having someone's life in your hands. 

Now days, I walk around my gym and see people with their hand off the brake on grigri's every time I'm there. Scares me to think of these kids taking that outside. 

I get the insurance and lowest common denominator arguments, but I just don't know if I can agree to an atc ban. 

N Mwrote:

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My gym, Tacoma Edgeworks, has banned autobelays and now is banning ATCs. I love grigri’s as much as the next guy but this is I think the right decision for the wrong reason. The staff in general don’t enforce strict belay technique and I believe this is a managerial crutch for lack of oversight. Overall their quality as a gym has declined significantly and there are no other gyms in the area so this is a total bummer. Just wanted to see if anyone else has experienced declining gym quality due to corporate management? Has this buyout gym culture affected other gyms outside of the Seattle area?

Yeah, it sure has.  My gym hasn't banned ATCs, but has moved auto belays off the taller walls and only made them available on the shorter walls.  Gotta protect the investment.  It's not just corporate management.  This behavior has two perspectives.  If you were a gym owner, would you willingly take on more liability given that it has become a yuppie fitness craze and people don't respect the risk and don't accept risk incrementally as most climbers did before the proliferation of gyms and climbing as a more mainstream sport?  I expect you would not, but that's just my opinion.  From the climber's standpoint- the experienced climber, not the neon-clad dipshits that are clueless about the consequences if you fuck something simple up- it surely does suck.  Essentially experienced climbers that are aware of risks and behave appropriately and respect checks and other safety practices keep losing amenities because the vast majority of gym denizens are clueless.  Fair? No.  Changeable?  Probably not.

The owners can do as they please, and consumers can go elsewhere if they don't like the product.  

Inspire has two locations in the Houston area both have assisted braking devices required.  Other than being a trad dad who refuses to change there is no reason to belay single pitch sport climbs with an ATC.

Don Frijoles wrote:

There's a video online somewhere that proves that the grigri is just as deadly as the ATC.

Show it to the person working the front desk and the gym will change their policy.

Yes, because the front desk dirtbags are the ones responsible for changes in gym policies lol 

Adam Wwrote:

Inspire has two locations in the Houston area both have assisted braking devices required.  Other than being a trad dad who refuses to change there is no reason to belay single pitch sport climbs with an ATC.

ATCs are much easier to use, especially for belaying a leader, more affordable (unless the gym provides them), and more versatile ( for those of us who also climb outside and multi-pitch). The best argument for a Grigri ( or other assisted belay device) is the potential for the belayer to be hit and knocked out by a falling object—far from a likely occurrence in a gym ( and if that does happen, the gym owner will have other things to be concerned about than the type of belay device being used).

But, yeah, it is a private business, so the owner can do what they want ( or, what they are told to do by their ignorant about climbing insurer), however misguided.

As stated earlier, your opinion on whether learning on an ATC is a better learning process, or whether the Gri Gri is a death machine, is irrelevant. The fact is that assisted devices have become the industry standard. If someone decks and is maimed while being belayed by a Gri, the gym is theoretically safe, within reason, from liability. If the same happens but with an ATC, because the gym did not observe the industry standard, the gym is on the hook. 

Tom Chingas wrote:

Plus with a gri you don't have to try at all to hold the brake strand when your friend is hang dogging the shit out of their proj...

Sort of sums up a lot of the pros/cons.  Going off on a tangent - can we please please please stop calling it a "gri"?   Next thing you'll be asking about "condis" 

Jake Fosterwrote:

Another BS. Obviously OP is a liar. There are Climb Tacoma and Cirque Climbing nearby. Why say there are no other gyms in the area?

There are plenty of competitors to choose from. If you don't like it, vote it with your money - go to other gyms.

Lacey / cirque climb is a solid 40+ mins at least

And is closer to Olympia than Tacoma so that is a little disingenuous to say it’s in the SeaTac area but
Climb Tacoma is a boulder gym only and I am likely going to switch because of this poor service despite not being a boulderer

B Gwrote:

Prime Climb got bought by Rock Spot - which I think started in Rhode Island - and is very much limited to New England.

Buuut, Brooklyn Boulders - Somerville got bought by Bouldering Project. It's a trade of one corporate master for another, but BP- Somerville only allows mechanically assisted break devices.

Central Rock has also been expanding like crazy too. So Boston has a ton of gyms, but things are definitely moving in the direction of corporate gym ownership

I’ve actually been to the Somerville gym and the way they have done it I quite like. With attached perma grigris that lets you still lead with ATC iirc. It makes their TR grigri policy easy to use.

earth treks/movement did the same thing years ago...and no one is mad about it.

Sam Skovgaardwrote:

It doesn't look like you have to use a gri-gri, you can use any of the other assisted braking devices, many of which don't suffer from the drawbacks of the gri-gri and have a very ATC "feel" as a belayer.

Exactly. I'm an old dog that doesn't easily learn new tricks, but after several decades using ATCs (and sticht plates!) it wasn't difficult to switch to a BD Pilot when my gym changed their policies.

N Mwrote:

null

My gym, Tacoma Edgeworks, has banned autobelays and now is banning ATCs. I love grigri’s as much as the next guy but this is I think the right decision for the wrong reason. The staff in general don’t enforce strict belay technique and I believe this is a managerial crutch for lack of oversight. Overall their quality as a gym has declined significantly and there are no other gyms in the area so this is a total bummer. Just wanted to see if anyone else has experienced declining gym quality due to corporate management? Has this buyout gym culture affected other gyms outside of the Seattle area?

Were you the guy also crying on Reddit about this?

As someone else has probably said, its based on insurance requirements. The insurance dictates what devices they accept for the particular gym or walls in the gym. The gym complies with the insurance company or loses coverage. That's all.

Alan Rubinwrote:

ATCs are much easier to use, especially for belaying a leader, more affordable (unless the gym provides them), and more versatile ( for those of us who also climb outside and multi-pitch). The best argument for a Grigri ( or other assisted belay device) is the potential for the belayer to be hit and knocked out by a falling object—far from a likely occurrence in a gym ( and if that does happen, the gym owner will have other things to be concerned about than the type of belay device being used).

But, yeah, it is a private business, so the owner can do what they want ( or, what they are told to do by their ignorant about climbing insurer), however misguided.

Tell me you only climb easy trad without telling me you only climb easy trad. 

curt86irocwrote:

earth treks/movement did the same thing years ago...and no one is mad about it.

Movement gyms in the bay still allow ATCs, I wish they wouldn't, too many fucktards

Desert Rock Sportswrote:

As someone else has probably said, its based on insurance requirements. The insurance dictates what devices they accept for the particular gym or walls in the gym. The gym complies with the insurance company or loses coverage. That's all.

That is quite questionable based on the spread of peculiar rules in various gyms - some gyms within the same city/town allow this, but not that, you can use one device for testing only, then anything you want. Some pre-attach GriGri(s) to ropes, some don't.

Looks to me that owners/operators do WTF they want and blame insurance companies when clients express their displeasure.

Edgeworks in Bellevue no longer allows kids under 14 who are not monthly members. Regardless of parental guidence. Their policies are extremely reactionary.

Don Frijoles wrote:

The video is very convincing. It shows a rope sliding through the grigri in slow motion. I think there is even dramatic music.

I believe you and I’m sure you’re right….I just don’t think very many front desk employees have any say in gym policies. Not at least at any of the gyms I’ve been too…granted, I hardly climb at the “big, commercial“ gyms.