Body tension problem, or weak fingers?

When it comes to steep bouldering, I've always struggled to keep my feet on the wall for really extended moves and really push through my feet.  Further, heel hooks and toe hooks - when in an extended position - always stump me because I don't trust it, and don't engage in the way that I need to.  The thing is, I can't really tell how to engage my core and full body to keep my feet on the wall.  When people say "hold tension", I simply don't know what that means.  I've always been really good at staying in a small box, cranking my feet up high, doing shouldery moves with my knees in my chest, but flail anytime I'm in a fully extended position (if it's steep).  I'm a shorter climber (5'6" ish) with a negative ape index (5'4" reach) and will always choose to cut feet and stab them back onto something than maintaining the extended positions.  Obviously, this can't be done on all routes or problems and relies a lot on finger strength, which (according to Lattice) is incredibly low for me based on my routes and bouldering grades.

So I suppose my question is, is this lack of body tension due to weak fingers or a weak core?  While I know and accept that I have weak(er) fingers and am making strides to improve that, I actually feel like my core is super good and strong, I just don't know how to use it when I need to.  The only time I feel like I am actually using or engaging my core is when in kneebars to rest or using a kneebar to make a move (I'm almost always in a small box during this though).  I do a lot of core work for tension - planks, supermans, rings, etc. and am always able to complete those things without max effort, sometimes even with added weight. So...tips, suggestions, just suck it up and figure it out?

Are you keeping your hips close to the wall?

Are you bringing your side hip into the wall?

Are you Toeing in?

Are you trying to pull your hips into the wall using your feet?

Video be helpful.

I'll bite. Body tension is often more about the posterior chain than traditional core. Knowing how much you like Rifle, your core is likely fit already.

I, too, have weak af fingers but I feel my tension has improved for myself in recent years (used to cut feet on the moonboard alot and now can stay pretted locked in stretched out). Finger strength never hurts but I really haven't improved in that all that much but I have done a lot more lifting. 

Deadlift and upper back / shoulders movement will target the posterior chain most efficiently. Looks like you already do TRX/Rings so try to start with the deadlift. Single leg kettlebell deadlift is great if you want quick gains without risk of your low back getting angry. Transition to standard RDL or normal DL when you plateau with the kettles, start slow, focus on form, yada yada. 

Edit: Whoops deleted my shoulder talk when I saw you already did rings/TRX. I found the 30 second 'Y' holds to be the most helpful over supermans or T's. Focus on form and not letting the low back cave, start slow even if it doesn't feel as shouldery as you'd expect. Then transition to 3x5s for more bouldering style pop and strength, you should feel it transfer from the shoulders to the toes, ease off if it gets 'stuck' in the low back again. Inverse/antagonist Y's (where you stand leaning back on your heels with chest high rings) also feel great at the end of any session

Thanks Adam, that's helpful.  The last paragraph really hits home.  I really struggle with getting that feeling of pushing with my toes while doing those stretched out positions on the rings.  When I feel it, it's a great feeling, but still haven't been able to figure out how to replicate it every time - just need to practice it more.  My lower back was flaring up a bit this past fall doing those ring drills - I have some lower back issues from hyperextension stuff from being a pole vaulter in HS - but I think I need to work on the form more and not let the back sag downwards.

This isn't really specific work out advice but something I found helpful when working out with a friend as sometimes having the strength and knowing how to apply it are different. He had me get on a spray wall in a near standing position/arms about 90 degrees and walk my hands up holds in very short increments while keeping my feet in the same position and hips close to the wall, holding a few seconds after each hand movement. It gives you a bit of time to recognize and feel the position activation change in your core/glutes/hamstrings/calves. Might help if you feel like your strength is there, but maybe you're just not recognizing how to effectively use it. 

The heel and toe hook thing is maybe a bit more about technique than anything as I don't really feel a lot of muscle use in extended positions. Heel hooks can often not only be about the position of your heel specifically but also the direction your toe is pointing and also the angle you are fixing your ankle at if that makes sense. I agree with previous people that videos of yourself doing these moves can give you a good idea especially if you can compare them to someone of similar size to you on a gym problem or something.

That's a really helpful drill.  I feel that's where I'm struggling - how to apply and use the strength that's already there by getting a better feel for the body positions and muscle engagement.

As for heel hooks, I definitely experiment with toe positions, ankle positions, posting my other foot when possible, but the biggest thing is I just straight up get scared heel hooking.  Not so much on a rope, but while bouldering it's kinda scary to be upside down with a deep heel and not feel like I'm going to just plummet on my head if I fall....

Following with interest as you sound similar to me (short ish, weak fingers, and have trouble with climbing in extended body position). I will defer to others as everyone in this thread is stronger than me, but I thought this climbharder thread was interesting and relevant:

https://www.reddit.com/r/climbharder/comments/ymypqt/moonboard_cutting_feet_vs_keeping_feet_on_why_and/

Pandy Facklerwrote:

That's a really helpful drill.  I feel that's where I'm struggling - how to apply and use the strength that's already there by getting a better feel for the body positions and muscle engagement.

As for heel hooks, I definitely experiment with toe positions, ankle positions, posting my other foot when possible, but the biggest thing is I just straight up get scared heel hooking.  Not so much on a rope, but while bouldering it's kinda scary to be upside down with a deep heel and not feel like I'm going to just plummet on my head if I fall....

yeah thats fair. if you have gym access starting doing them on pretty crappy holds low to the ground to build up some confidence.

+1 to posterior chain strength. However, I happen to be good at moving weights and that isn't very useful on this own. I find it hard to transfer that strength to climbing.

The best thing i've found is getting on a steep board with bad feet. I started by holding extended positions, then and trying to move one foot to another extended position without cutting, then moving into extended positions from more comfortable one (I'm about the same size and also small boxes). That seems to simulate the level of coordination necessary to transfer strength into climbing.

Thankfully, I enjoy that kind of incremental practice. Others may struggle with boredom or distraction when trying it.

I have a basement board with really terrible feet. When I'm climbing well on it, I climb well outside. It seems to transfer better than any other indoor climbing i've done, including other boards. I see that you are in boulder - I'd be happy to share session on it and show you some of the things I've learned.

Core Tension NEEDED? Here are 3 Quick Drills! - YouTube 

just posted from lattice, similar drills to what some of us have mentioned

Hooper's Beta just released a good video with general info about core strength and body tension along with applicable exercises.

I’ll echo heavy weightlifting and board climbing with bad feet as crucial to helping me improve long tension, along with shoulder strengthening and learning to climb in a wider box. I’m 5’2 and when I moved to the New, I found myself frequently getting shut down when the holds weren’t good enough to jump to, which is my preferred method of dealing with big moves. I saw a huge improvement after a cycle of deadlifting, overhead pressing and intentional board climbing. I set myself lots of specific move trainers on the Moonboard, especially moves where I had to keep my foot on the kicker at max extension. I added some very bad feet to the kicker in addition to the standard moon feet. Even if I could do the move as a jump easily, I had to do the move with feet on. I also had a bad habit of relying on being able to drop knee or twist to generate body tension, so I also spent a lot of time forcing myself to climb very square, even if it wasn’t the easiest way to do the problem.

Initially I thought my fingers needed to be stronger but I eventually realized the issue was more that I couldn’t engage my shoulder enough to actually use the strength in my hands on long and wide moves. The pressing, along with wide pull ups and front lever progressions helped me be able to hold the tension through my whole body.

Wanted to thank everyone for the tips and advice.  A lot of the stuff from here was very helpful and I’ve been noticing a huge difference. It was all in the lower posterior chain, once I started doing things to target that I was quickly aware that was the weak link.

Pandy Facklerwrote:

Wanted to thank everyone for the tips and advice.  A lot of the stuff from here was very helpful and I’ve been noticing a huge difference. It was all in the lower posterior chain, once I started doing things to target that I was quickly aware that was the weak link.

Awesome, thanks for the update. Anything particular as far as exercises or techniques that worked especially well for our reference?

Single leg kettle ball lifts were a big one, as well as just focusing a lot on the sensation of really pushing with feet on steeper, easier things to get the "feel".  Same with heel hooking and toe hooking, trying to use those moves unnecessarily on easier things to just get the motions and feel down.  Really learning to activate the muscles in the booty to keep the body in extended positions; learning to flex the butt is kind of hard!  I've also been following a Lattice plan for the last 3 months and have been doing all of the assigned tension and core exercises.  Last year when I did the same program, I was doing my own core stuff in lieu of what they assigned me and, surprise!, it wasn't the right kind of core for body tension.  It's mostly been TRX rings, bar-core stuff (hanging leg raises, knee raises, windshield wipers, etc.).  The biggest take away is learning and understanding that core is not just the stomach and abs...

Tension in steep terrain basically comes down to keeping your hips and torso in the right path as you make moves. That, in turn, makes it possible to weight the feet and keep them weighted as you extend—the more you sag away from the wall, the less weight you can possibly transfer to the feet 

That boils down keeping the lower body tucked in (posterior chain strength) and upper body at the right distance and angle to the wall (row/shoulder strength, plus strength in grips that allow you to pull into the wall rather than just dangle). The latter is really critical in my experience. To do harder steep board-like problems, you need to be able to “get behind” holds (at least those you can’t pinch) so you can pull into the wall, and you need a lot of outwards pulling strength in a semi-horizontal plane. (The corresponding “antagonist” strengths like bench/pecs are also useful for stabilizing the shoulders.)

Obviously there’s a lot of subtlety to it all  for instance, ankle positioning is important depending on the profile of the foothold. There’s no way to hit all those points in a comment, though, you just need to get practice and be mindful.

I’d recommend:

1. Watch a lot of good boulderers climbing steep terrain and try to really understand the body mechanics. It’s substantially different from just pulling straight down on vertical terrain and you’ll need to retrain your brain a bit to understand it.

2. Get a lot of quality mileage on a steep board. Focus on controlling the moves and moving relatively slowly and in control rather than moving with a lot of speed and momentum. The more static style will build strength in the relevant positions, but it also teaches you what’s “in balance”, which is crucial to body tension.

3. Adjust your supplemental training to focus on quality efforts in the movement patterns I described. When training the fingers, use a very active grip rather than just dangling. Dangling really doesn’t work on harder steep problems.

For the heels, I can’t really relate, but I’ve got a 500ish deadlift so that probably has something to do with it. There’s probably a more efficient way to gain that strength but you can’t go wrong just building stronger hamstrings.