How to know if sandstone is climbable

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I was on board with your whole oNe-mAns-TRasH-iS-aNoTheR-mANs-TrEASurE schtick but you definitely lost me, along with credibility, saying any route developer in the 90’s only developed choss. Not only is that incredibly disrespectful to Alan Watt‘s and all other 90’s developers, but it’s also hilariously wrong. Places like the red and new, which were first developed in the 90’s don’t have a lot of choss piles put up during that time frame because Porter and company had pick of the litter when developing. This continued into the early 2000’s. Stick the current PNW development when speaking in absolutes especially, cause I know for damn sure you weren’t climbing in the 90’s or even early 2000’s. 

Have you actually spoken with them? The developer of the most popular 12+ and 13- in Washington has horror stories about these routes he put up in the 90s (not to mention I ripped a microwave off one). Alan Watts has said multiple times in multiple places that everyone claimed he was just bolting choss. I very breifly chatted with Todd perkins the other day and he didn't really make the Hurricave sound amazing. I then watched him glue a climb back together. Index the land of amazing rock, one of the earliest developers Jon wrote a story about a entire climb that fell over after he clipped the chains. I think it is insane to claim you know what the route looked like before it was done without talking with the person who cleaned it. Maybe it was bomber but you really don't know until you chat with the person. Just because the route is clean now, doesn't imply it was clean in 1990.

Chad Miller wrote:

You can develop anywhere your ego and the local climbing community allows it. Doesn’t change the fact that you put up routes on choss then brag about it.
Finally, you’re not a famous developer and I doubt that anything you put up will become a classic.

Ruff Ruff!

Edit: seems we can’t agree on what choss is. I guess one man’s choss is another man’s treasure! Guess I’ll leave you with a pic of choss!

I don’t want to take a side in this fight, but do have to acknowledge that many ( but be no means, all) of the early US sport climbing areas developed in the 80s and 90s were considered to be ‘choss’ by most of the established climbing community of the day, and, to be honest, many of them were, in their original state, especially in comparison to the then ‘standard’ of Yosemite granite—Smith, Shelf, American Fork—numerous others. Of course, many of the soon to be known as ‘traditional climbers’ of the day were also putting up routes on rock that fully qualifies as choss in the SW desert and elsewhere.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Where should I be developing? Am I missing a checkbox for what is and is not choss. One famous developer told me, "I bolted the worst rock I have ever touched and now it is one of the most famous routes in america! I made a turd classic!"

I wont disgree that developing is an egotistical circle jerk. That is the consensus among me, my friends and the old developers. But to beat your chest claiming you know with impunity what rock is good and what rock is bad, is the same as a soccer mom claiming she only drinks top tier wine. 

I never said anything of sort.  I said choss is choss.  If you can't identify choss then you shouldn't be developing routes let alone putting in bolts.  If you want to bolt choss that's fine.  Just don't go around lying and saying it's not choss.  

I think you're projecting a bit too much.  It's affecting your trolling ability.  T1

Edit to add:

Here is an example of an expansion bolt in wingate. 

https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/105923344

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Tell that to Alan Watts. Or really any developer from the 90s, they will agree;everything is choss!

Nope!

I developed multiple areas in the 90’s, The Devil’s Dancefloor in Yosemite is some of the best rock in the park.

Three areas in San Diego County - Randy Leavitt called one the best granite sport climbing he’s ever done. The others are nearly as high quality, Eagle Peak being one, over two hundred pitches, 90% sport

You’re wrong Puppy! And those areas, two in particular, were perfect, immaculate rock when discovered - no cleaning at all.

However, choss can yield some good moves, but the aesthetics are usually lacking. Both aesthetics and quality are still out there, untouched.

“Choss” doesn’t just mean loose bad rock, it also means “bad” climbing.

Carry on.

Tradibanwrote:

“Choss” doesn’t just mean loose bad rock, it also means “bad” climbing.

Carry on.

That's great news! What little I've developed is all officially choss and should be avoided. Thanks Tradiban for all of the quiet crag days to come!

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Have you actually spoken with them? The developer of the most popular 12+ and 13- in Washington has horror stories about these routes he put up in the 90s (not to mention I ripped a microwave off one). Alan Watts has said multiple times in multiple places that everyone claimed he was just bolting choss. I very breifly chatted with Todd perkins the other day and he didn't really make the Hurricave sound amazing. I then watched him glue a climb back together. Index the land of amazing rock, one of the earliest developers Jon wrote a story about a entire climb that fell over after he clipped the chains. I think it is insane to claim you know what the route looked like before it was done without talking with the person who cleaned it. Maybe it was bomber but you really don't know until you chat with the person. Just because the route is clean now, doesn't imply it was clean in 1990.

Ruff Ruff!

1. I have chatted and worked with many developers from the 90’s and early 00’s, yes….but you’re missing my point as any discussion with them has no relevance to what I’m trying to help you understand.

2. You’re still speaking almost exclusively anecdotally. 

3. I never claimed to say what the rock looked like prior to development. Many classic routes may have started with choss, that does not mean they are choss. 

4. Your implication was that developers of the 90’s developed choss, as in that was their final product.

5. My post is saying that many of the routes put up in the 90’s and early 00’s are not choss routes. Many are classics and many often started out far less chossy and took far less “cleaning” when compared to modern day routes put up on the same areas.  

“Choss” doesn’t just mean loose bad rock, it also means “bad” climbing.

Actually, Tradi, that’s just your opinion

You make it sound like that’s indisputable, as if it were decreed by some higher level all knowing godlike climbing authority

I admit there is no exact definition of choss, but in order for climbers to communicate clearly, I think terminology has to have some meaning.

You’re implying that “bad” climbing on perfect rock can be choss, in the tradiban dictionary. I may be wrong, but don’t think the majority of your fellow climbers would agree. One man’s bad climbing can be another’s  delight. Take slab - some climbers love it, some hate it. Same with offwidth. They can both be on perfect rock, but you can’t call one or the other choss because you’re not happy. Or at least you can’t if you want the climber you’re talking to to get the picture. There are words in the climbers’ lexicon to communicate that dynamic without simply writing either off as choss.

Maybe it’s just me, but climbers that throw the word around can sound arrogant and inarticulate when they dismiss decent climbing on good rock as choss.

I don’t consider a pitch with a few flexible holds or even a loose block or two as choss, but I’ve heard some climbers do. Maybe it’s just that the roots of my climbing were peak bagging in the Sierra. By that definition 99% of the Sierra Nevada is choss.

I’ve also done well over a thousand pitches of untouched climbing, so loose rock is standard for me. I even enjoy dealing with it, and I think it’s a skill that modern climbers would benefit from developing.

Bottom line, I think the word should be reserved for bad quality rock, like crumbly kitty litter or falling apart loose crap - that’s how it was originally used. That way climbers understand what you’re trying to communicate. 

Chad Millerwrote:

If you want to bolt choss that's fine.  Just don't go around lying and saying it's not choss.  

PP Lovr has been very open about bolting choss, I don’t think that he has ever tried telling people that choss is not choss. 

Logan Petersonwrote:

That's great news! What little I've developed is all officially choss and should be avoided. Thanks Tradiban for all of the quiet crag days to come!

That must’ve been hard for you to admit, I respect your candor.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Actually, Tradi, that’s just your opinion

You make it sound like that’s indisputable, as if it were decreed by some higher level all knowing godlike climbing authority

I admit there is no exact definition of choss, but in order for climbers to communicate clearly, I think terminology has to have some meaning.

You’re implying that “bad” climbing on perfect rock can be choss, in the tradiban dictionary. I may be wrong, but don’t think the majority of your fellow climbers would agree. One man’s bad climbing can be another’s  delight. Take slab - some climbers love it, some hate it. Same with offwidth. They can both be on perfect rock, but you can’t call one or the other choss because you’re not happy. Or at least you can’t if you want the climber you’re talking to to get the picture. There are words in the climbers’ lexicon to communicate that dynamic without simply writing either off as choss.

Maybe it’s just me, but climbers that throw the word around can sound arrogant and inarticulate when they dismiss decent climbing on good rock as choss.

I don’t consider a pitch with a few flexible holds or even a loose block or two as choss, but I’ve heard some climbers do. Maybe it’s just that the roots of my climbing were peak bagging in the Sierra. By that definition 99% of the Sierra Nevada is choss.

I’ve also done well over a thousand pitches of untouched climbing, so loose rock is standard for me. I even enjoy dealing with it, and I think it’s a skill that modern climbers would benefit from developing.

Bottom line, I think the word should be reserved for bad quality rock, like crumbly kitty litter or falling apart loose crap - that’s how it was originally used. That way climbers understand what you’re trying to communicate. 

I agree with you but try telling a millennial insta-climber that.

Choss

“(climbing) Rock that is unsuitable for rock climbing, e.g. because it is too soft, unstable, or overgrown.   - https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/choss#Noun

When did this thread turn from someone asking for safety advice to defining choss?

Fwiw, I'd define choss as poor rock quality. Chossy? Could be anything. Could be my attitude.

Zach Baerwrote:

When did this thread turn from someone asking for safety advice to defining choss?

Fwiw, I'd define choss as poor rock quality. Chossy? Could be anything. Could be my attitude.

As long as people are climbing rock, Choss and safety will always be talked about hand in hand.….but also, the genesis of this threads ultimate demise came the second ol’ Trevor posted

Chad Millerwrote:

Edit to add:

Here is an example of an expansion bolt in wingate. 

https://www.mountainproject.com/photo/105923344

If anything this perfectly aligns with what I am saying. This is a 25 year old aid climb, are all the other bolts glue ins? I imagine all the bolts are the same as that one on this route. It might not even be the actual rock the bolt could have just been placed in a hollow spot in the rock. One of 30 bolts on an aid line failing on some random desert tower doesn’t really cause a ton of concern for me. Yeah I wouldn’t place them now but if I was climbing I would clip them. If this offends you so much, why are you not out there fixing all the routes like this?

My definition of choss, is clearly different than others. I think the second you start deciding which holds stay and which holds go, you have to at least acknowledge you are in some level of choss. Which is fine, if you think choss is black and white I would love for you to give me a list of crags that are and are not choss.

Zach Baerwrote:

When did this thread turn from someone asking for safety advice to defining choss?

(This space was intentionally left blank)

I think it comes down to a mis-communication regarding the definition and/or context in which we are talking about Choss.  

Correct me if I'm wrong but:

- I think JT and Chad are talking about unredeemable choss.  That is to say, things that shouldn't *ever* be bolted, or if they are bolted extra precautions should be taken (e.g. don't use wedge bolts in Wingate).  Given Puppy Lovrs historical comments, they are questioning his competency as a route developer because he talks about working with a lot of choss.

- I think Puppy Lovr is talking about the ability for choss to be redeemed (but it will always be choss, in the same way someone's kid will always seem a bit like a kid even though they grow up).  He might even be saying that most rock climbs are technically choss until some work has been put in to make them climbable (un-choss through cleaning, gluing etc).  

- JT, Chad, and Puppy Lovr have some kind of love triangle

- Tradiban is a voyeur 

INFO:  JT and Chad - do you guys develop routes?  How many new routes have you developed?  I mean this in a polite way, to my perspective, your opinion doesn't matter if you haven't bolted/cleaned/developed 10+ sport climbs in your lifetime.

Aaron Waitwrote:

I think it comes down to a mis-communication regarding the definition and/or context in which we are talking about Choss.  

Correct me if I'm wrong but:

- I think JT and Chad are talking about unredeemable choss.  That is to say, things that shouldn't *ever* be bolted, or if they are bolted extra precautions should be taken (e.g. don't use wedge bolts in Wingate). 

You’re right about miscommunication, but you can leave our fucking love triangle alone otherwise. Ain’t no room.

I’ve already said that when someones says “developed choss” I interpret that as referring to the final product whereas Trev is referring to the entire process, with a focus on the initial state of rock. I don’t really care how you define choss…and if you’ve cared to actually invest in this love triangle you would notice I haven’t said much about what the definition of choss is as you are inferring. That’s mostly Tradi, Chad, and some other randos  

Given Puppy Lovrs historical comments, they are questioning his competency as a route developer because he talks about working with a lot of choss.

Again, if you cared to invest time and energy into this relationship you’d notice I’ve never questioned his competency, only his quality….and admittedly his ethics at times. 

- JT, Chad, and Puppy Lovr have some kind of love triangle

Yup, notice how “A W” isn’t in that love triangle…

INFO:  JT and Chad - do you guys develop routes?  How many new routes have you developed?

If you care enough to ask this question you certainly can care enough to go back and look at my comments where I’ve answered this question and/or similar ones. I ain’t repeating myself for ya pal.

I mean this in a polite way, to my perspective, your opinion doesn't matter if you haven't bolted/cleaned/developed 10+ sport climbs in your lifetime.

So you interject into our love triangle and then try allude to the fact that you think Chad and I don’t have an opinion of the matter but say you mean it in a polite way. Get fuck outta here lmao 

Also, I’m not sure if it’s an actual love triangle. Trev knows I love him dearly and use him for entertainment purposes…Chad is new to the relationship. Pretty sure it’s not gonna last long between the 3 of us.

With that said….quit side-railing a perfectly good MP argument. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Jealously ain’t a good look for a 3way.