Climbing and law school?

I'm headed to law school next year and am wondering if any fellow MPers had insight into what I can expect. Guessing that I won't have much time for anything beyond the gym for most of 1L, but hoping that 2L and 3L might have more opportunities for weekend trips. Would love to hear anything and everything if you've been there!

Well, my law school experience was very long ago, but I still think the basics remain--you and where you go to school. Law school tries to make you think that you have to work 25/8, but, depending on your study habits, etc., this doesn't have to be the case. I went to a pretty decent law school and 'survived' with acceptable grades, yet still had plenty of time to climb and participate in other 'extra-curricular' activities. Of course, I didn't 'make' law review and such things, nor did I get a job in a corporate law firm--but those weren't my priorities or even of interest to me. I went to law school long before gyms and in a city where, while there were climbing options, none were very easy to get to--especially without a car of my own. The first half of my 1L year I even had Saturday morning classes. Still I was able to make it work and got out most weekends--even some weekdays, when the weather allowed. It obviously will be more difficult where climbing options are more limited and easier where they are close and abundant (though, in that latter case, they may indeed prove to be too much of a distraction). Much more recently a friend's daughter attented the same law school, did excell far more than I did academically, and still managed to get in a good amount of climbing (by then gyms were in the picture, which helped). Of course there were others in both generations who did put in that 25/8 and did little else. I wonder what they think of that experience now?

I graduated from law school in 2010 and my experience was a carbon copy of Alan’s. I was a slightly older law student of limited ambition, and accordingly, I didn’t get sucked into the hyper competitive 1L scene.

I realize this is off-topic and may get flagged but ... please don't go to law school unless you're attending at least a top 13 school. 

Please don't. It's not too late.

Outside the top 13 schools and with some small exceptions, 50% of the graduating class at will not have a job upon graduation, nor will they have the income to service the substantial and non-dischargeable student loan debt. Please read "Don't go to law school (unless)..." by Paul Campos. Please read the blog Outside The Law School Scam. Please review the flowsheet in the link below:

https://abovethelaw.com/2013/10/deciding-to-go-to-law-school-in-one-epic-flowchart/

Or if you do go and it's January of your 1L year and you've gotten your grades back and they're not what you hoped they would be, cut bait. If you're not top 5%, you're not getting biglaw.

Remember, you will be giving up at least 3 years of income and incurring substantial debt. 

Your situation might be unique and I would love to hear more. For example, how are you paying for school, where are you attending, have you seen what lawyers actually do during a given day (not including writing posts on MP!), do you have an "in" with a relative, etc.

  Gym climber + Lawyer.   Eww.  

Talk about glutton for punishment and jokes in any social circle, lol.   

(J/k.  Good luck with the studies)

They told me it takes about 6,000 hours of study to become an actuary and I climb like 100-130 days a year, I wouldn't put too much stock in the 25/8 people. If you were able to manage undergrad studying significantly less than others you probably won't need the 25/8 lifestyle. 

It totally depends on where you want to go and what job you want after school. I went to CU Boulder, graduated in 2017, and climbed all the time. I also was on law review and wrote a law review article, so certainly you will be busy at times but if that's your priority you can make it happen. Being in a place like Boulder helps and no matter what, especially 1L year, sometimes there won't be time for anything but the gym. By 3L year a buddy and I had worked our class schedule to end the week at noon on Thursday, and start on Monday at 5p which allowed for lots of trips to the Creek, Red Rocks, Zion, etc. This also meant we didn't do much except study the other days. But of course you have to be willing to do some work in coffee shops, read and study in camp, etc (I specifically remember submitting one take home final from the Moab McDonalds). I had no desire to work in big law, but still graduated top 25% and got the job I wanted. If you want big law you'll need the grades and that will of course cut into your climbing time, but if that's the path you want, then the grades are paramount. 

I also had Paul Campos for property law and....interesting guy, but if you want to be a lawyer and have a plan for where to go and what work you want to do, don't read into that too much. That above the law article is also from 2013, which was when the law graduates were affected by the recession (there is always a lag). Latest report from CU: chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/ colorado.edu/law/sites/defa… shows well over that claimed 50% number, even in the teeth of the pandemic, but YMMV. Bottom line is time management is key. Most times you have enough for climbing and school, if that's where you work to make your priorities 

Alan Rubin wrote:

Well, my law school experience was very long ago, but I still think the basics remain--you and where you go to school. Law school tries to make you think that you have to work 25/8, but, depending on your study habits, etc., this doesn't have to be the case. I went to a pretty decent law school and 'survived' with acceptable grades, yet still had plenty of time to climb and participate in other 'extra-curricular' activities. Of course, I didn't 'make' law review and such things, nor did I get a job in a corporate law firm--but those weren't my priorities or even of interest to me. I went to law school long before gyms and in a city where, while there were climbing options, none were very easy to get to--especially without a car of my own. The first half of my 1L year I even had Saturday morning classes. Still I was able to make it work and got out most weekends--even some weekdays, when the weather allowed. It obviously will be more difficult where climbing options are more limited and easier where they are close and abundant (though, in that latter case, they may indeed prove to be too much of a distraction). Much more recently a friend's daughter attented the same law school, did excell far more than I did academically, and still managed to get in a good amount of climbing (by then gyms were in the picture, which helped). Of course there were others in both generations who did put in that 25/8 and did little else. I wonder what they think of that experience now?

She really didn't work that hard - did not make law review either.  But she climbed a lot, wrangled a year at Oxford as part of the deal (Alan knows what the incentive for that was) and took the $$$ cooperate job just long enough to pay off the loans.  I think like Med school and a bunch of other similar situations you can 100% immerse yourself - but if you have other interests it will back fire if you don't strive for a life balance.

Thanks all, this is super helpful. There are many stories floating around about 1L--everything from YGD to 'just manage your time and it'll be fine'--so it's nice to hear that many of you seem to have made it work.

@ Mark B: thankfully the admissions gods were kind, so I'm headed to Berkeley Law and feel pretty good about post-grad employment. No 'ins,' and I've had solid chats with attorneys in various fields about their day-to-day.

@ Mark Pilate: fingers crossed I can get to the Valley enough to avoid the gym climber stink!

bryans wrote:

Ridiculous. Ignore this guy. Top 13 school? Big law? Some of us went to law school for reasons besides getting personally wealthy.

BigLaw broke my spirit. I was so worried I would become what we called an "accidental partner" by not leaving in time. If I were still in that environment, I would not have much time to climb at all.

As for law school: it is what you make it. Treat it like a normal job and you'll have plenty of time to do non-law school things. The people who studied constantly in my school did not out perform those who treated it like a job. Also, learn that law school is a game. Figure out the rules (e.g., professors don't want the objective "right" answer or your personal analysis; they want you to show you got what they taught you.).

Finally, I think the old adage rings true: 1L they scare you to death, 2L they work you to death (journal and other BS), and 3L they bore you to death.

I went to school in SF and climbed a fair amount, my only real limitation was a major digression into surfing.  I was on law review and all that and there was still time.  Law students spend a lot of time drinking, obsessing over how busy they are and spinning their wheels.  Your only problem is being in the Bay Area which means a solid drive to decent climbing.  

In my experience, studying takes time. There's no way around it if you want to do well in law school. But if you have good study habits, it's not like the work is unmanageable. Personally, I prioritized having regular weekday hours over other things, so I'd do most of my reading on the weekends and then have weeknights generally free. If you're a gym climber, it'll be no problem if you're diligent with your work. I had classmates who were very high achievers (think Law Review & federal appellate clerkships) who would swim or go to the gym on a daily basis. If you want to make time for climbing trips, that's doable too. As long as you keep on top of your work during the week, you should regularly be able to clear your weekend schedule to get on some real rock (though it might mean sacrificing some evenings to the hornbooks).

As far as 1L vs 2L vs 3L, I personally didn't find them to be much different in terms of demands on my time, but I also worked part time during 2L and 3L and was on a journal. 

I went to U of Wyoming School of Law and climbed at Vedauwoo all the time, weather permitting.  Pretty easy to manage.

My experience (also quite a while ago) was somewhat like Alan's. Tuition was far less expensive, so student loans were manageable, even without having to sell your soul to "BigLaw." And, really, why would most well balanced people want to go the "BigLaw" route? [Having spent a few years at a high-end boutique firm, other than gaining great experience, it was hell.] 

During 1L, my climbing was impacted (no gyms then), but by 2L, you get the routine dialed. Actually took 2+ weeks off 2L to participate in a AAC-BMC climbing exchange, with zero downsides academically (top 10%) and clerked 2L & 3L. It is all about priorities and where and what you see yourself wanting to pursue as a lawyer.

I concur that the article cited can largely be ignored, unless you see academia or the Federal Appellate bench as your goals.  

My experience, very recent and luckily for my climbing it was online due to covid, was pretty great. I will agree, 1L year it will be hard to find substantial time during the week to get your normal climbing hours in. Depending on how well you study and how easily you can pick up the law school study format, because in my experience it was drastically different than undergrad, you can surely find time to make your way to the gym especially if you are willing to lose some sleep. Outside of the month leading up to finals I was able to get outside pretty much every Friday after noon and Saturday, while spending 1, maybe 2 late nights at the gym during the week. This, however, required me to give up pretty much my entire Sunday every week to catch on reading and studies. 2L isn't necessarily better but you will have learned a lot of how you study and what is successful for you and your interests. If you play your cards right 3L year should be a climbers dream. My biggest suggestions would be to really focus on a great 1L year performance, if you can try 1 class a summer (opens up your 3L year for climbing activities), and lastly make sure that you set time aside every week to climb at least once no matter how busy you are. Law School burn out is a very real and scary thing, make sure to take time for yourself!  

I went to law school.  Graduated in 1992.  

Worked at a large law firm for two and a half years.  

Left to become GC of a biotech startup.  Have been in-house ever since.  Currently am CEO of my third biotech start-up.  

I will address the question you asked, and also the issue that Mark B raised about the quality of the school you attend.  (The two are related.)

I went to Columbia.  Attending a top ranked school makes everything easier.  Provided your grades put you in the top half of your class, you are pretty much guaranteed a well-paid job.  If you're in the top 20% of the class, you can work for pretty much any firm you want to work for.  Employers look at a top law school as a pre-sorting mechanism.    

Because of this halo effect of attending a top school, you don't have to kill yourself trying to be at the very top of your class.  My law school experience was way less stressful and time consuming than my undergraduate experience.   I had time for regular trips to the Gunks and the various boulders around NYC, with trips to the Adirondacks, Catskills, and Vermont/New Hampshire in the winter for ice. (This was in the days before climbing gyms were a thing.)    My law school experience was really a life of leisure.  However, I wasn't worrying about having to be number one in my class, so my stress level was low and my level of play was high.  

If you are not attending a top law school, your job prospects are more limited.  You need to stand out from all the other lawyers out there that attended lower-tier schools.  If you have very good grades or are on the law review, that will help.  If you have an undergraduate degree in the STEM fields that will help.  If you happen to be a member of a favored minority group, (non-white, non-asian,) that will help a lot.  I was on our firm's hiring committee, and saw how the process went.  We recruited from about 8 schools.  If you didn't attend one of those schools, you needed something extra to get you through the process.  

So, if you are not attending a top school you're probably going to want to study really really hard to ensure that you have the grades to get a good job at a decent firm.  You may not have time to climb as much as you'd like.  

Why should you care about getting a "good job" at a decent firm?  

Working at a large (national or regional) law firm is the fastest way to pay off your debt.  I was lucky because I had no undergraduate debt and I had a 1/2 tuition scholarship during law school so my debt load was low.  I paid it off within 3 years of graduation.  That's unusual.  Most folks have a larger debt load.  

Perhaps more importantly, working at a good law firm is the best way to get the experience you will need if you want to go in-house at a corporation.  Most corporations hire their in-house attorneys from the pool of ex big-law attorneys.  Generally, the really good corporate in-house jobs are obtained by lawyers who go in-house at a client they work with.  This is what I did.  

I was not cut out for a lifetime in Biglaw, but it was a super valuable experience for me, and allowed me to get the background, expertise, and connections I needed to do what I really wanted to do, which was working in-house.  I would very much recommend a stint at a large prestigious law firm even if you have no intention of making that your lifestyle long term.  A Biglaw experience can open a lot of doors for you.   

Why is working in-house a good thing?  I really think that being an in-house lawyer is the best of all worlds.  The pay is good.  The hours are reasonable.  The benefits and vacation tend to be very generous.  If you're working for a start-up, the equity gives you a very large upside potential.  Throughout my career, I've got to climb a lot, all over the world.  I've got to go to all of my kids' sports events.  It's been a great work/life mix.  I remember one Saturday, I was backcountry skiing in Colorado's Indian Peaks.  Bluebird skies, 2 feet of powder.  I was thinking, "right now, I know that there are at least 4 attorneys at my outside law firm that are working on a project for me so that I can review it first thing Monday morning."  It was confirmation that I had made the right decision to leave Biglaw and pursue a corporate job.  If you want to have the kind of lifestyle where you can have a lot of time for climbing, I can highly recommend the in-house track.  However, you are probably going to have to pay your dues at Biglaw before you can get the opportunity for a sweet in-house job.   

Maybe you have no interest in either Biglaw or the corporate track.  Maybe you want to go public interest or government.  If that's the case, then my advice to you is to minimize your debt load. Graduating with crushing debt and then trying to pay it off on a meagre salary is not fun.   If you are not attending a top law school, and you are looking at graduating with a lot of debt, I would advise you to think again about your plans.  There's no way I would go into massive debt for a degree from a mediocre law school.  

This article linked below is a cautionary tale about what can happen:

Law School Debt

Much of what is said here applies to working toward a PhD. In math, from what I've read, it's a highly competitive job market for tenure tracks. Enjoy what you're doing and have an inquisitive mind, law, or math or whatever.

Jacob B wrote:

Thanks all, this is super helpful. There are many stories floating around about 1L--everything from YGD to 'just manage your time and it'll be fine--so it's nice to hear that many of you seem to have made it work.

@ Mark B: thankfully the admissions gods were kind, so I'm headed to Berkeley Law and feel pretty good about post-grad employment. No 'ins,' and I've had solid chats with attorneys in various fields about their day-to-day.

@ Mark Pilate: fingers crossed I can get to the Valley enough to avoid the gym climber stink!

Great, you should be fine with Berkley. I found that I had enough time in law school to do more or less what I wanted so I bet you'll have time for climbing. If you enjoy reading though, you probably won't enjoy reading much after law school. What field are you interested in? 

I made my comments above because I have seen many, many people go to law school without a clear idea of the debt they were taking on and the opportunity costs, as well as a realistic idea of what practicing law is actually like. I stand by my general comments. I have been an attorney for 13 years and an engineer before that and pop culture gives you no real idea of how boring it can be most of the time. Also, lawyers tend to drink a lot.

Take the doom and gloom with a grain of salt. I graduated from a top 40 law school, in the middle of my class (top half?), in 2010. So, I was a mediocre graduate from a slightly better than mediocre school, entering the job market at the tail end of the Great Recession. I found work at a federal agency pretty quickly, and out of boredom and desire to get some trial experience I became a state prosecutor two years later. Did that for a while, and then, looking for better work/life balance, took a position with a state agency. I’m not wealthy, but the compensation is decent, the benefits are good, I have plenty of time off, and my student loans will be paid off within a year. 

bryans wrote:

Sounds like you and I had parallel experiences, yours coming 10 years later than mine, and you drew similar conclusions. People who love to toot their own horn and tell you their GPA/LSAT/connections/net worth (i.e spray) love to talk about law school like it's navy seal boot camp followed by the squid games to get a job but really, it's not. I worked harder in college than law school, and not once was I asked about my grades after law school. If I have any regrets, I wish I studied less and spent more time knowing my classmates, some of whom were the most beautiful, idealistic and committed souls I will ever meet. I did have to pass the bar exam, and that definitely took some work, but you can climb your face off while you study, and then decompress with some climbing for a few weeks afterwards. 

Truth

As a state government lawyer ,I climbed in Yosemite every Spring & Fall for 20+ years ,ice in Canada , went on  Himalayan expeditions ,skiied every Winter ,back packed every Summer, sailed a Hobie , & cycled to work. My legal work was interesting & I had a life .