The Gym Setting Blues

Big Redwrote:

Comps are the worst thing to happen to setting since dualtex

It’s all been to promote climbing into the Olympics which maybe 10% of “climbers” care about.

Big Redwrote:

Comps are the worst thing to happen to setting since dualtex

People who complain about comp style setting and dualtex are tattling on their own lack of technique. Technical footwork, whole body movement on balancey features, and 3D climbing that forces both pulling and pushing in multiple planes are all more relevant to outdoor climbing than ladders of comfortable face holds spaced 2’ apart on a flat 2d plane.

Coordination dynos are still the devil, though

All those techniques sound great but I don't feel like they describe comp setting at my gyms. More like huge moves to smooth, flat features with giant holds for heel and toe hooks. 

MattHwrote:

People who complain about comp style setting and dualtex are tattling on their own lack of technique. Technical footwork, whole body movement on balancey features, and 3D climbing that forces both pulling and pushing in multiple planes are all more relevant to outdoor climbing than ladders of comfortable face holds spaced 2’ apart on a flat 2d plane.

Coordination dynos are still the devil, though

Pretty much agree. I started climbing before bouldering gyms and "modern" comp setting existed (at least down here) but honestly, I really enjoy it these days. The new variety in movement has revived my interest in indoor climbing. I basically never top rope any more, I'll go to the "real" gym to lead but otherwise I just go to the bouldering gym.

(Although, some friends and I did dabble in actual parkour as teenagers, so maybe I'm already biased towards it)  

I'll disagree on dualtex though. Still often feels like a cheap and lazy way to add difficulty.

MattHwrote:

People who complain about comp style setting and dualtex are tattling on their own lack of technique. Technical footwork, whole body movement on balancey features, and 3D climbing that forces both pulling and pushing in multiple planes are all more relevant to outdoor climbing than ladders of comfortable face holds spaced 2’ apart on a flat 2d plane.

Coordination dynos are still the devil, though

Not sure running across a bunch of volumes to do a triple clutch double dyno qualifies as technique. I agree with most other things except that I have climbed far more crimp/sloper ladders outside than I ever have (or will) climbed moves that require a simultaneous hand flip/bump...

MattHwrote:

People who complain about comp style setting and dualtex are tattling on their own lack of technique. Technical footwork, whole body movement on balancey features, and 3D climbing that forces both pulling and pushing in multiple planes are all more relevant to outdoor climbing than ladders of comfortable face holds spaced 2’ apart on a flat 2d plane.

Coordination dynos are still the devil, though

“Comp” setting isn’t realistic and basically supplants tricks for all those things you describe. It is focused on separating the field and showy moves to get the crowd pumped. Regardless it’s just not “fun” to have to work a bunch of slopers and then have to piano match a crimp to “finish”.

I’m addition good setting should give options on how to do a problem to accommodate different body types, comp setting focuses on skinny flexible runts and ignores the average Joe. 

MattHwrote:

People who complain about comp style setting and dualtex are tattling on their own lack of technique. Technical footwork, whole body movement on balancey features, and 3D climbing that forces both pulling and pushing in multiple planes are all more relevant to outdoor climbing than ladders of comfortable face holds spaced 2’ apart on a flat 2d plane.

Coordination dynos are still the devil, though

A narrow definition of technique, training technique, and most importantly application. It tells us about a limited level and depth of experience. 

Tradibanwrote:

“Comp” setting isn’t realistic and basically supplants tricks for all those things you describe. It is focused on separating the field and showy moves to get the crowd pumped. Regardless it’s just not “fun” to have to work a bunch of slopers and then have to piano match a crimp to “finish”.

I’m addition good setting should give options on how to do a problem to accommodate different body types, comp setting focuses on skinny flexible runts and ignores the average Joe. 

It's asking a lot, to firstly criticize indoor setting for being unrealistic, but then also want indoor setting to accommodate different body types? The real rock around here sure doesn't accommodate different body types. It brutally discriminates against shorter folk, who often find things grades harder, and has plenty of tiny unsafe holds to sort out those of us with tweaky fingers and a few extra kilograms. I think if anything, geology is ignoring the average joe.

I kind of want my indoor bouldering to be "better than life". I've spent...so much...of my life in gyms climbing the same old holds in the same old ladders, I'll take all of the weird challenges to keep it interesting.

I will agree that an indoor lead route finishing on a bad hold is a bit stupid (though I love the image of draping your entire arm over the back of the wall, trying that trick myself for sure some time haha). I'm sure we could all name a few outdoor sport routes that have desperate clips at the chains, but again, why shouldn't a gym be "better than life".

Tradibanwrote:

Something about, and I’m serious, this is what they said, “building community”.

To add to the list, there’s no grades just colored tags, so a yellow tag could be V3 to V5 which seems like a pretty big range to me.

"Building community", not grading lines because, well you know, its not about grades man and then having competitions where flexing on grades is the norm... I know of this phenomenon and cant quite grasp the nuances of this business model, especially when the all important community is kicked out of the gym so they can set for the battle of the best.

Sam Mwrote:

It's asking a lot, to firstly criticize indoor setting for being unrealistic, but then also want indoor setting to accommodate different body types? The real rock around here sure doesn't accommodate different body types. It brutally discriminates against shorter folk, who often find things grades harder, and has plenty of tiny unsafe holds to sort out those of us with tweaky fingers and a few extra kilograms. I think if anything, geology is ignoring the average joe.

I kind of want my indoor bouldering to be "better than life". I've spent...so much...of my life in gyms climbing the same old holds in the same old ladders, I'll take all of the weird challenges to keep it interesting.

I will agree that an indoor lead route finishing on a bad hold is a bit stupid (though I love the image of draping your entire arm over the back of the wall, trying that trick myself for sure some time haha). I'm sure we could all name a few outdoor sport routes that have desperate clips at the chains, but again, why shouldn't a gym be "better than life".

There’s no reason every route in a gym can’t be “classic” because we can pick and choose the holds and put them where we want them.

What’s good in climbing gyms these days seems to be circus tricks, you may find classic boring but there’s a wide consensus on what good climbing is and isn’t. These comp routes would be dismissed as two star throwaways in an outdoor setting, their only appeal in that they look cool on the ‘gram.

Sam Mwrote:

 why shouldn't a gym be "better than life".

On the one hand I do appreciate that gym routes can be quite fun - for example any outdoor boulder with a steep roof and hero jugs is going to be a fun classic. I'm glad we can get plastic classics on demand.

But fundamentally I climb in the gym to get better so I can climb outside (I know this isn't the norm for many people now). I want my gym to at least have options so I can crank on shitty crimps with bad feet.

Big Redwrote:

I want my gym to at least have options so I can crank on shitty crimps with bad feet.

Isn't that called "the moonboard"?

Someone said here before, that's the deal you will get with a modern bouldering gym - they set the main areas for the masses but provide a spray wall and a moon/kilter/tension board.

Sam Mwrote:

Isn't that called "the moonboard"?

Someone said here before, that's the deal you will get with a modern bouldering gym - they set the main areas for the masses but provide a spray wall and a moon/kilter/tension board.

IDK man, the hard part of moonboarding is tension and space between holds being used typically. Like the OG Moonboard set only has like 5 or 6 truly bad crimps. I mean there’s only like 2 that are less than a 1/2 pad right   

Tradibanwrote:

Got a few questions:

What’s with the very unsatisfying finishes?

What’s with the high feet? Is it revenge of the shorties?

What’s with the lack of scrubbing? Chalk ain’t sticky!

These are serious questions.

Got a few answers / opinions from a newbie route setter at the small but mighty Apex gym!

Our finishes are very satisfying because we use the "slap the tape x mark" system akin to Olympic speed climbing

I apologize for all the high feet but we can't move the holes closer together on our wall. Feel free to smear or use the awesome little edges of the sport rock wall.

Also we don't use chalk at this gym, just wipe that shit on your pants.

Also we got some rad open projects that I'm pretty sure go if any Arvada area crushers are up to the challenge come check it out. We got chimney climbing, overhangs galore and awesome little natural features and seams.

These are semi-serious answers

“I want my gym to at least have options so I can crank on shitty crimps with bad feet.”

A shout out to Session Climbing in Santa Rosa, who put up that exact route. even has an aotobelay on it. Flail away i did. Has a jug finish but I’m always too gassed to grab it. Kevin Jorgeson and partner Mike Shaffer opened it up this spring. 

Anyone else getting a kick out of realizing Tradiban isn’t a die hard Trad dad, but rather one of those entitled gym climbers who complains about gym route setting on mountain project? My advice: Hang board more, type less.

Funny, I had the opposite reaction to the new route setting in the gym lately. Finally, they’ve been setting stuff that’s not just a ladder with a crux. 

I think having a challenging hold to finish on is good on a bouldering wall. It basically makes the last move hard, which effectively makes the climb a bit more sustained, rather than every single climb ending with “throw to the jug lip”. You get more out of the height of the wall with a hard match move.

And I prefer the ranged grades. Who cares what the number is.. especially in the gym. People whine and moan about subjective grades, everyone’s body type is different, so why try to make it so exact? Consensus on outdoor climbs is reasonable - those climbs are there for eons. In a gym it’s gone in a month.
Also, it’s good to try something that’s out of your “normal range”… it’s a great way to get stronger and become a better climber. 

Nick Herdegwrote:

Got a few answers / opinions from a newbie route setter at the small but mighty Apex gym!

Our finishes are very satisfying because we use the "slap the tape x mark" system akin to Olympic speed climbing

I would prefer this to the death crimp finish or upside down sloper finish.

I apologize for all the high feet but we can't move the holes closer together on our wall. Feel free to smear or use the awesome little edges of the sport rock wall.

You can drill more holes.

Also we don't use chalk at this gym, just wipe that shit on your pants.

This is the worst, let me guess your whole gym is black shoe marks. Alternatively I don’t have to use chalk at my gym and have to scrub the shit out of everything because it’s caked on by the noobs.

Also we got some rad open projects that I'm pretty sure go if any Arvada area crushers are up to the challenge come check it out. We got chimney climbing, overhangs galore and awesome little natural features and seams.

If no one has climbed it yet, it probably sucks.

These are semi-serious answers

Nick Herdegwrote:

Got a few answers / opinions from a newbie route setter at the small but mighty Apex gym!

Our finishes are very satisfying because we use the "slap the tape x mark" system akin to Olympic speed climbing

On a bouldering wall that sounds absolutely awful unless your walls are only like 10’. On sport climbing walls and top rope walls this sounds less awful, but you might as well just add bell finishes and embrace the gumby goofy aspect 

I apologize for all the high feet but we can't move the holes closer together on our wall. Feel free to smear or use the awesome little edges of the sport rock wall.

Lone stars are your friend, not too mention so many more hold options are screw on since Covid and the home wall movement…please at least tell me the sport rock wall isn’t the shitty enterprise panels…

Also we don't use chalk at this gym, just wipe that shit on your pants.

Your gym is getting less and less appealing by the minute…also, what am I wiping on my pants if chalk isn’t allowed…?

Also we got some rad open projects that I'm pretty sure go if any Arvada area crushers are up to the challenge come check it out. We got chimney climbing, overhangs galore and awesome little natural features and seams.

Ooof…though I do like the idea of gyms having bounties on projects. I could get down with the first person to send gets a free whatever; yerba mate, block of chalk, etc.