Redpoint vs Pinkpoint

Regardless of pinkpoint/redpoint semantics, it is really strange that so many have such strong feelings about prehung draws. Because, I started climbing in the very early days of sport climbing, and I’d say that 80% of my climbing is sport climbing, and I have never seen anyone pull their draws for each attempt when working a route. Is this just Internet forum shenanigans?  

the schmuck wrote:

Regardless of pinkpoint/redpoint semantics, it is really strange that so many have such strong feelings about prehung draws. Because, I started climbing in the very early days of sport climbing, and I’d say that 80% of my climbing is sport climbing, and I have never seen anyone pull their draws for each attempt when working a route. Is this just Internet forum shenanigans?  

Most of the strong feelings I'd guess come from insecurities.  The human mind is always seeking for a way to tell itself it's better than others for some reason or another.  In this thread it's that pre hung draws on a sport route is cheating, I would just guess because they've never climbed anything steep/at their absolute limit consistently.  Spend any amount of time in a cave and you'll be just fine with pre hung draws.  

Ultimately what I don't get is why get mad over it? Is it because of the one time you pulled over the roof and knew the belayer couldn't see you, so you pulled on that bolt and made up your own reality? Been there buddy call up that belayer up and tell them the truth you didn't send then you'll quit worrying about others. Sharpen your mind and be okay with your own accomplishments, lose that superiority complex. 

Mark Pilatewrote:

Lol.   No doubt typed without any hint of irony

Shush, Mark. I'm trollin' here.   

Internal consistency is for serious people doing serious things.

Frank Steinwrote:

Is this just Internet forum shenanigans?  

For the most part, yes.

In the real world, nobody cares, and if they did care, there's no reason for you to care that they care.

David K wrote:

Arguing with Brandon is a good time. 

Edit @ Brandon, I like your insight thanks for sharing.  I hope no one is targeting you, and like Mark said for the most part I'd wager 99% don't really care. Those that do probably just need a little more milage.   I hope you enjoy your time out there.  If we cross paths one day, I can tell you'd be a rock-solid belay.  Until then let's meet up at the next shit-post. 

2nd Edit: The everyone isn't targeted at you, just a generalization. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Regardless of pinkpoint/redpoint semantics, it is really strange that so many have such strong feelings about prehung draws. Because, I started climbing in the very early days of sport climbing, and I’d say that 80% of my climbing is sport climbing, and I have never seen anyone pull their draws for each attempt when working a route. Is this just Internet forum shenanigans?  

I think this crystallizes the misunderstandings here.   People on both “sides” are stating truisms, while misinterpreting others.

  I’d bet the following is true…

1. 99.5% of climbers don’t give a rat’s ass how others climb or what they do

2. Probably close to the same percentage leave draws or gear in place after a failed attempt 

3.  Pulling draws at the highest end of sport climbing just became impractical if not almost impossible…so something that was historically feasible in the 5.12 range is way more hassle in the 5.14 and above range

5. Words and phrases were historically developed and used to differentiate types/ styles of climbs by the small subset of people who gave a rat’s ass 

6. These terms were then adopted by the unwashed masses…the “community” at large if you will

7.  Then, just like everything—grades and terminology evolve and soften to fit the whims and egos of the evolving community and trends in the sport  (the Elbesandstein called and said we’re all soft AF)

8. So, the discussion really comes down to getting the new memo out to those who climbed through the times when certain grades and terms meant something different.  

9. The “Graypoint” Ethic I personally follow probably suits many others as well.    This is where you deliberately leave the details of the ascent rather vague or unspecified, and if asked, begin your tale with a drawn out “weeelllllll….”
 

Classic generation gap   Nothing more.   

Jordan Wilsonwrote:

Brandon my internet friend, what is up?  

Good thoughts on the matter.   I just don't get why people are so concerned about what other strangers are claiming as a "send/redpoint/pinkpoint" or whatever.  It's not like you're in competition with all these internet strangers.  Everyone who starts climbing is usually hell bent on "sending" a 12a just so they can say they sent one, then when they do all the insecurities come out about it being soft or the draws were hung or whatever.  Climbing is so much better once you get to the point that what you call a send is purely up to you and those who are in your inner climbing circle.  If someone really wants to hang their draws so they can call it a redpoint power to them, if they want to use pre hung draws and still call it a redpoint go for it, if they do it on top rope solo all good you're not their sponsor so why care?

Edit: Just saw your other comment Brandon, good thoughts for people to consider while they make up their own rules, for me personally it depends on the crag and even the grade.  If I'm at a steep crag that has permas I'll always use the permas because cleaning that is a bitch, if I'm doing a mellow and/or warm up, I'll always hang my own draws. If I'm going for a "redpoint" and the draws have already been hung by me or someone else, I'll leave them because it is easier and more enjoyable for me. If I'm doing a trad route I'll always place my gear.  Its the Wilson way and I'm good with it, even if someone claims my send doesn't count because the draws were already there. 

Jordan! Don't know if your "everyone" comments are aimed at me or just an observation about the general climbing population, but just in case they're to me, I can assure you I've been at this a long time and have come to the same basic conclusions more or less. It's not how someone climbs that I care about. It's more about someone else saying that I'm an idiot if I choose to call a "send" a pinkpoint or whatever you want to call it, just for clarification purposes. Many people see a distinction between the two for various reasons, and your choices are perfectly fine with me. I'm not trying to tell people how to climb, but I also don't want them telling me what words I can use to describe something either. For those who DO want to tell me how I'm allowed to personally categorize an ascent, then my previous comments apply only to show them just how inconsistent and arbitrary their reasoning is. I honestly don't understand why this topic is so threatening to so many people. It reminds me of how all those people got all outraged at the thought of U.S. history classes adding the not-so-great things this country has done to the curriculum. Discussing the facts isn't intended to cast shame or pride, but rather simply to share accurate information. I'd rather not whitewash or sweep the facts under the rug. 

edit: Or more simply, I don't see "pinkpointing" as cheating, I just see it as leading on pre-placed draws. Nothing more, nothing less. If someone has an issue with that, it's probably due to their own insecurities, not mine. 

edit: David K, you are the Ted Cruz of mountain project. There is sooo much you don't understand, but rather than seek understanding, you assume whatever suits your cause in order to "win" some non-existent game no one wants to play. Sure, you frame your lack of comprehension into cute little rhetorical questions so you can play coy if pressed, but it's clear there is nothing sincere about them. So, while you may think others see you as clever for picking apart my post, line by line, and addressing each while missing the intention and context, all I see is someone who eats boogers and has no friends. 

Mark Pilatewrote:

I think this crystallizes the misunderstandings here.   People on both “sides” are stating truisms, while misinterpreting others.

  I’d bet the following is true…

1. 99.5% of climbers don’t give a rat’s ass how others climb or what they do

2. Probably close to the same percentage leave draws or gear in place after a failed attempt 

3.  Pulling draws at the highest end of sport climbing just became impractical if not almost impossible…so something that was historically feasible in the 5.12 range is way more hassle in the 5.14 and above range

5. Words and phrases were historically developed and used to differentiate types/ styles of climbs by the small subset of people who gave a rat’s ass 

6. These terms were then adopted by the unwashed masses…the “community” at large if you will

7.  Then, just like everything—grades and terminology evolve and soften to fit the whims and egos of the evolving community and trends in the sport  (the Elbesandstein called and said we’re all soft AF)

8. So, the discussion really comes down to getting the new memo out to those who climbed through the times when certain grades and terms meant something different.  

9. The “Graypoint” Ethic I personally follow probably suits many others as well.    This is where you deliberately leave the details of the ascent rather vague or unspecified, and if asked, begin your tale with a drawn out “weeelllllll….”
 

Classic generation gap   Nothing more.   

thank god someone on this app can articulate. 

probe: why doesn’t 8a.nu have a pinkpoint option for a tick?

Mark Pilatewrote:

7.  Then, just like everything—grades and terminology evolve and soften to fit the whims and egos of the evolving community and trends in the sport  (the Elbesandstein called and said we’re all soft AF)   

Hah! To Elbsandstein climbers - and, indeed, to climbers in other parts of Germany - AF means something rather different from what I imagine you mean here: Alles Frei/All Free - which ironically, bearing in mind that it involves resting and/or hanging belays on the [widely-spaced] Ringe, it clearly isn't!

B Swrote:

thank god someone on this app can articulate. 

probe: why doesn’t 8a.nu have a pinkpoint option for a tick?

Cause pinkpoints don’t exist

Jordan Wilsonwrote:

Arguing with Brandon is a good time. 

I have to admit, he caught me a bit off guard with the "eats boogers and has no friends" bit! Playground insults make me feel like I'm picking on a kid, not sure I can continue after that.

Redpoint: clean lead of sport pitch (draws preplaced or not) or clean lead of trad pitch, placing all gear on lead

Sportpoint: clean lead of trad pitch on preplaced gear

Onsight: an ableist term that should be retired

Flash: indecent exposure resulting in police action and possible filing as a sex offender

Greenpoint: to cleanly lead a sport or trad pitch while carefully watering and fertilizing cliffside plants

Greypoint: leading or following a pitch as a person living on retirement/social security/pension plan

John Clarkwrote:

Redpoint: clean lead of sport pitch (draws preplaced or not) or clean lead of trad pitch, placing all gear on lead

Sportpoint: clean lead of trad pitch on preplaced gear

Onsight: an ableist term that should be retired

Flash: indecent exposure resulting in police action and possible filing as a sex offender

Greenpoint: to cleanly lead a sport or trad pitch while carefully watering and fertilizing cliffside plants

Greypoint: leading or following a pitch as a person living on retirement/social security/pension plan

There's a full rainbow, John. You're missing a few.

Redpoint: clean lead of sport pitch (draws preplaced or not) or clean lead of trad pitch, placing all gear on lead.

Orangepoint: redpoint which is so terrifying it makes you pee your pants.

Yellowpoint: urinating on the route to establish dominance. This grants you bolting/chopping rights on the route under dog law, regardless of whether you've climbed the route.

Greenpoint: area of North Brooklyn.

Bluepoint: climbing a route and then continuing on into the sky to become a bodhisattva, achievable only by those who climb 5.16 and transcend mortal reality.

Indigopoint: climbing a route while listening to vaporwave (considered bad ethics in 2022).

Violetpoint: I dunno, ask Violet.

What's the point: reaching the chains, untying, and flinging yourself from the top, usually resulting in death.

Stoney Point: historical, once-proud climbing area where you can now claim hard grades on soft climbs without danger of downgrade, because it's such choss that nobody with talent will ever bother to climb there and call you on your BS.

Mountain Project Point: a stupid opinion stated with complete certitude as if it were fact.

Brandon Rwrote:

There is sooo much you don't understand, but rather than seek understanding, you assume whatever suits your cause in order to "win" some non-existent game no one wants to play.

If you don't want to play, why you playin'?

So, while you may think others see you as clever for picking apart my post, line by line, and addressing each while missing the intention and context, all I see is someone who eats boogers and has no friends. 

Calm down. If you wanted to seem more mature than me, playground insults weren't the way to do it.

Feel free to point out what intention and context I missed. If there was something I missed I'll happily admit it.

David Kwrote:

Calm down. If you wanted to seem more mature than me, playground insults weren't the way to do it.

Bro….you lost the second he called you booger boi. Might as well throw in the towel before it’s too late 

FWIW, in Australia and NZ it’s still common to distinguish between red point and pink point ascents. Personally, I find it useful for personal benchmarking. For instance, my hardest pink point ascent is two YDS letter grades higher than my hardest red point send (grade 30 versus grade 28). I’m sure I couldn’t have done many of my hardest ticks whilst placing draws, but it’s a sign of progress if I can eventually place draws when repeating a route I previously pink pointed. 

David Jeffersonwrote:

FWIW, in Australia and NZ it’s still common to distinguish between red point and pink point ascents. Personally, I find it useful for personal benchmarking. For instance, my hardest pink point ascent is two YDS letter grades higher than my hardest red point send (grade 30 versus grade 28). I’m sure I couldn’t have done many of my hardest ticks whilst placing draws, but it’s a sign of progress if I can eventually place draws when repeating a route I previously pink pointed. 

Someone gets it!

Now back to who eats more boogers!

Tyler Metheney wrote:

The 2nd answer was the best and truest. It’s sport climbing. Red point is dead. Anytime I get a chance on hard sport climbs I’ll hang as many as my mega clip will reach. It flows better. I’ve seen permas at every crag in so ill minus cedar bluff (an may it stay that way). If you don’t like that I mark read point well frankly my brother, I don’t give a dam

I would interpret it more as pinkpoint never existed…red point is the OG send. Pinkpointing is really only applicable to trad climbing in all reality. Semantics, sure, but saying “red point is dead” makes no sense to me when modern day sends are done in the same style as the original red point. I also don’t really give a hot damn, just bored at work lol 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I would interpret it more as pinkpoint never existed…red point is the OG send. Pinkpointing is really only applicable to trad climbing in all reality. Semantics, sure, but saying “red point is dead” makes no sense to me when modern day sends are done in the same style as the original red point. I also don’t really give a hot damn, just bored at work lol 

Ok, let’s just take it for granted that no one really gives a hot damn, and we’re all just wasting time till the bell rings here, discussing nuances of climbing and history.   It’s at best mildly amusing.   So with that said….

WTF ya mean “modern day sends are done in the same style as the original redpoint”?!? Lol.  

Mark Pilatewrote:

Ok, let’s just take it for granted that no one really gives a hot damn, and we’re all just wasting time till the bell rings here, discussing nuances of climbing and history.   It’s at best mildly amusing.   So with that said….

WTF ya mean “modern day sends are done in the same style as the original redpoint”?!? Lol.  

Perhaps poor choice of words on my end. I was speaking strictly on the style in regards to whether the draws were already hanging during a send or hung (by the climber) while sending. What I was trying to convey is that modern day red points often refer to draws already hung (i.e. Ondra redpointing silence), just as old school red points often had draws already hung (i.e. Wolfgang redpointing Punks in the Gym).

I just don’t understand how redpoint can be dead if it’s the primary term being used for any sport climbing send lol 

J T wrote:

Bro….you lost the second he called you booger boi. Might as well throw in the towel before it’s too late 

I've never recovered from him calling me a leg humper.  

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I just don’t understand how redpoint can be dead if it’s the primary term being used for any sport climbing send lol 

The redpoint is dead.  Nobody does it anymore.  Pinkpointing is the way but nobody likes the color pink.  The sport climbing community has become a bunch of colorists.