What exactly does The North Face sell to make it a "climbing company" aside from just huge sponsorships?

Neil Chughwrote:

why does this purity test not extend to brands like Patagonia, Royal Robbins, or Prana?

TNF literally stands for a rock climbing formation (and not the cable route/snake dike sides of it), so it's kind of stuck w/ that interpretation.

To be fair, TNF probably sponsors more climbing athletes than any other American companies, so there is that. 

Neil Chughwrote:

I am also 24 and don’t know how the world works

You seem to have more of a grasp than the OP!

Neil Chughwrote:

I work for TNF, so maybe I can give some slightly more in depth perspective: TNF does not sell much technical gear that is correct, but also neither does Patagonia so I don’t really understand the gripe. The company has always prioritized apparel and has continued to make specialized apparel for a variety of activities. TNF has always been a climbing brand, they designed some of the most popular jackets sold to the public for specific athletes and routes. A good example of this is the Denali jacket, that fleece everyone you know could recognize if it’s pointed out. That was designed for and used by Todd Skinner on the FFA of the Salathe.

This year alone they debuted the project pant with durable tear resistant fabric and strategically placed seams to increase range of motion, as well as the route set pant with tool pockets and loops for work on the wall.

This fall they are expanding and consolidating the summit series line releasing both high alpine climbing apparel and backcountry ski apparel in the same category due to the big increase in multi-disciplinary athletes and to increase the versatility of those products. They are also releasing technical footwear including a stupid lightweight approach shoe with a boa fit tightening system and a range of boots as well and the price point is much more friendly than the popular alternatives from La Sportiva.  

The technical gear they do make is designed primarily for high alpine missions and ski descents their packs, specifically the cobra 65 and the Snowmad 34 (which I own and use extensively) are amazing for their intended use.

I don’t understand why brands have to pass a purity test in order to be a “climbing brand.” Why does anyone care that most people want a warm coat for winter that looks good on them and that they don’t really give a shit if they can go into the alpine with it, and more importantly why does this purity test not extend to brands like Patagonia, Royal Robbins, or Prana? To the best of my knowledge those companies sell even LESS technical climbing equipment.

Hi Neil, this was a well-written contribution to this thread so I hope that my comment doesn't come across as argumentative or "trollish" in any way but I would like to hear what your opinion is on the fact that TNF bought out climbing equipment companies if their priority was apparel. It would be interesting to hear the history behind why a company like A5 was allowed to just die. How did that serve their business model?  Or am I missing something?  Was it just a false start? A mistake? 

Imma be honest with you I’m not that guy. All I do is sell jackets to Charlotte suburbanites, supervise the sales floor, and train seasonal sales associates.

All of that mess literally pre dates my existence and it’s highly likely anyone involved with those decisions no longer even works for the company. All I know is that I’m fairly broke and I get a fat discount on VF brands, which enables me to actually affordably buy decent outdoor clothes and packs.

Or am I missing something?

Yes you're missing an epoch of history. This will get you in the ballpark of what happened:

https://terrane.shop/blogs/logbook/north-face-a5

Neil Chughwrote:

Imma be honest with you I’m not that guy. All I do is sell jackets to Charlotte suburbanites, supervise the sales floor, and train seasonal sales associates.

All of that mess literally pre dates my existence and it’s highly likely anyone involved with those decisions no longer even works for the company. All I know is that I’m fairly broke and I get a fat discount on VF brands, which enables me to actually affordably buy decent outdoor clothes and packs.

Thanks for the chuckle and the honesty. 

Cherokee - Great link! You are correct,  I was missing a little bit of history and this helps me understand what happened but it seems to be what i expected it was...."A false start, or a mistake in direction". But the final sentences of this write-up might do well in explaining why some people (old trad dads) have what Neil calls a "purity" test.  The thought of TNF devouring such a cool little company definitely enters my mind when I am looking into the apparel I might buy.  There's that and there is the desire to set myself apart from a city slickin', socialite poser, that guides my brand selection as well. 

From the article:

"Ultimately, The North Face failed to capitalize upon the heritage of the brand, opting for a short-lived sublabel that failed to tell its story. The story of A5 is one that helps us understand the last 20 years of The North Face. Though the brand continues to fund the world’s top athletes and adventurers, it has done so under the pretense of generating shareholder value. The North Face’s roots in climbing, mountaineering, and skiing have taken on a new life as material used by marketers to sell backpacks come back to school season."

What i dont understand is their constant changes in their summit line. Recently we had the ventrix technology that was very good IMHO and then disappeared, and now, their advanced mountain kit, extremely procey. Ok.. But it lasted what? 1 or 2 years? Now cant even find any info online. Like it never existed, they changed the names of 2 jackets. But it made it confusing.. Any idea of why the technical lines change so often? I know the sell way less than regular apparel, but the company also kbows that and expect that. 

Philippe Queirozwrote:

What i dont understand is their constant changes in their summit line. Recently we had the ventrix technology that was very good IMHO and then disappeared, and now, their advanced mountain kit, extremely procey. Ok.. But it lasted what? 1 or 2 years? Now cant even find any info online. Like it never existed, they changed the names of 2 jackets. But it made it confusing.. Any idea of why the technical lines change so often? I know the sell way less than regular apparel, but the company also kbows that and expect that. 

Completely agree.  The ventrix line was amazing. Sad that north face just dumped it after 2 seasons. 

First and foremost Ventrix is back! You can find Ventrix tech in the Cassaval style jackets. AFAIK There were manufacturing issues with Ventrix which caused it to come and go. 

Similar issues were had with Gore Tex and the switch to Futurelight. 

As for the Advanced Mountain Kit: two factors contributed to it being so short lived IMO 1 being a much larger demand than anticipated (because it just looked fire) and 2. It was unfortunately released during the height of the supply chain crisis.

I think the company decided to cut their losses and focus on FY 22 by retuning and refining summit and it’s very evident in the line this season.

You’ll still see some of the tech released in the AMK such as DotKnit (which IMO is one of the best synthetic base layer tech on the market right now) as well as the internal stacked baffling on the 50/50 down jackets. Like I said earlier, Ventrix is also making a comeback, and you’ll also see new tech such as CloudDown (which I haven’t seen yet so can’t weigh in on) and Futurefleece (which I personally think is overrated). In addition, there’s a new technical footwear line featuring an approach shoe and 3 crampon compatible boots. The summit series line has also strayed from its traditional integrated layer approach (literally labeling the jackets as layer 1,2,3,etc to promote cross sales) and shifted to a new approach that recognizes the need for increased modularity and a personally tailored approach to using the jackets. IMO it’s more user friendly this way but can also lead to options paralysis if you don’t know exactly what you’re looking for.

If my lowly store in the harsh remote alpine town of Charlotte, NC….which sits in the shadow of the Crowders Mountain Massif is any indicator, the rollout has been massively successful. Summit has been a significant portion of our sales this season and we aren’t even into holiday season yet. I’m personally considering buying a Breithorn jacket, approach shoes, and one of the technical boots myself and I have yet to buy any summit series gear.

hope this answers your questions!

rebootwrote:

TNF literally stands for a rock climbing formation (and not the cable route/snake dike sides of it), so it's kind of stuck w/ that interpretation.

To be fair, TNF probably sponsors more climbing athletes than any other American companies, so there is that. 

My interpretation was that the TNF stands for the hardest/harshest part of any route and just uses half dome as their logo as it’s easily recognizable and marketable. 

Either way, to be fair, TNF used to make some great alpine stuff. The Ed Viesturs tents were awesome and I still have a Nuptse jacket that’s probably 20 years old at this point that has been well worth it’s weight in gold (which isn’t much as it’s so light). Their duffels are their only newer “technical” product I own and those things are bombproof. When it’s all said and done though, it seems the heaps of Denali fleeces and Gucci collabs steal the show and offset any quality product they might have left. 

When TNF went public the outcome was (in hindsight haha) fairly predictable. Publicly traded companies live and die by quarterly results. Private companies don't necessarily face that kind of relentless pressure. Cottage industry stuff like A5? Did it make as much money as a cheap-assed $10 white teeshirt with a TNF logo on it, sold for $25? Nope. Product category managers in public companies have to be ruthless. Every single SKU is rationalized against profit margin, sell-through and over all net-profit, season after season. When a SKU falls below the line, see ya. Then VFCorp bought TNF. VF Corp runs a portfolio of apparel brands. They apply best practices to flailing brands and make them profitable once more. In other words they are even more ruthless than the original TNF C-level, because VFCorp is a successful corporation. They will squeeze every bit of marketing value they can out of any brand or logo they own, regardless if they are actively expanding that part of the catalog, or not. Sponsored athletes belong to the marketing budget, not the product development budget.

Look, if this is all bothersome don't let it get you down. Go out and find some of the newer, smaller, leaner, and privately held brands out there and to hell with the big corps, if that's y our gig. There are lots of brands out there. 

Long Rangerwrote:

BD makes cams, rebadges ropes, and I don't know what's going on with their shoes. Their trekking poles are even pretty good - I used to own an Ice Axe of theirs. Didn't they start out as "All the hardware that Choinard Inc didn't want to deal with making anymore"?

I actually really like a lot of their technical apparel. Expensive, but you get what you pay for.

Remember when BD actually made their own ski bindings, and didn't just distribute a euro brand?

Seems like 10 years later and the BD O1 is still competitive with the best 75mm telemark touring bindings on the market. I sincerely believe that BD dropping out of that market is what killed 75mm telemark, and NTN rose up in it's absence.

As for TNF, their 4-season tents continue to be expedition classics, their duffels are the gold standard. They make expedition gear. They just also make a profit. Same with that other outdoor company born out of that van trip to Patagonia 50 some odd years ago.

Nobody calls out Prana for not selling climbing gear, and they were the lead sponsor on a bunch of climbing movies back in the day.

Neil Chughwrote:

First and foremost Ventrix is back! You can find Ventrix tech in the Cassaval style jackets. AFAIK There were manufacturing issues with Ventrix which caused it to come and go. 

Similar issues were had with Gore Tex and the switch to Futurelight. 

As for the Advanced Mountain Kit: two factors contributed to it being so short lived IMO 1 being a much larger demand than anticipated (because it just looked fire) and 2. It was unfortunately released during the height of the supply chain crisis.

I think the company decided to cut their losses and focus on FY 22 by retuning and refining summit and it’s very evident in the line this season.

You’ll still see some of the tech released in the AMK such as DotKnit (which IMO is one of the best synthetic base layer tech on the market right now) as well as the internal stacked baffling on the 50/50 down jackets. Like I said earlier, Ventrix is also making a comeback, and you’ll also see new tech such as CloudDown (which I haven’t seen yet so can’t weigh in on) and Futurefleece (which I personally think is overrated). In addition, there’s a new technical footwear line featuring an approach shoe and 3 crampon compatible boots. The summit series line has also strayed from its traditional integrated layer approach (literally labeling the jackets as layer 1,2,3,etc to promote cross sales) and shifted to a new approach that recognizes the need for increased modularity and a personally tailored approach to using the jackets. IMO it’s more user friendly this way but can also lead to options paralysis if you don’t know exactly what you’re looking for.

If my lowly store in the harsh remote alpine town of Charlotte, NC….which sits in the shadow of the Crowders Mountain Massif is any indicator, the rollout has been massively successful. Summit has been a significant portion of our sales this season and we aren’t even into holiday season yet. I’m personally considering buying a Breithorn jacket, approach shoes, and one of the technical boots myself and I have yet to buy any summit series gear.

hope this answers your questions!

thank you a lot for your answer. it definitely explains a lot.
Good to know that ventrix is back, tho the old design was pretty dope and the boots/approach shoes indeed look awesome.

Neil Chughwrote:

I am also 24 and don’t know how the world works

I’m 45 and know fuck all.

I’m 77. In the unlikely case that I once knew, I’ve now forgotten.

Kevin Worrallwrote:

Love the oval intension 

Petsfed 00wrote: .

Nobody calls out Prana for not selling climbing gear, and they were the lead sponsor on a bunch of climbing movies back in the day.

Yeah, cuz Sharma is hot as hell.

The reality is that there's no money in the clbing industry, it all comes from apparel. You can never have enough clothes right? They have their core products and they also want to market the "lifestyle" to those interested aka outdoor centric fashion which is the new hip and performative thing 

To be fair, TNF just brought out a decent* shoe aimed at routesetters.

*To be determined, I got mine yesterday and will only test it later today, but the looks and features seem alright and I know some people who are quite satisfied with its performance