Predictions: 15c in US?

I just think that the main challenge we’re coming up against here is not having mile-long overhung limestone cliffs you can see from town and walk up to with a reasonable approach. I’m sure we have some of that, but certainly not in the same bounty as EU.

José Flovin wrote:

I just think that the main challenge we’re coming up against here is not having mile-long overhung limestone cliffs you can see from town and walk up to with a reasonable approach. I’m sure we have some of that, but certainly not in the same bounty as EU.

A succinct description of the main reason US sport climbing lags behind Europe, in difficulty and quantity. We just don't have the same level of accessible rock resource. 

We do have the bouldering resource though, which explains why US bouldering standards are able to compare favorably to Europe.

The saying "Geography is Destiny" does seem to be quite true with regard to rock climbing.

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

That’s not saying much, for a multitude of reasons, but I’ve done a number of manufactured routes. What’s your point?

I would venture a guess that whatever route you’re referring to wasn’t put up in the last two (or probably even three) decades. I suppose I could be wrong as you conveniently chose to exclude the route name in whatever point you’re attempting to make.

 

Haha I was in a bad mood and unjustifiably take it out on you. However the route isn’t just chipped it is just rocks Bryan found on the ground and glued to the wall (at least that’s what he told me). I agree that route is probably closer to 12c than 13a but I’m just offended you/jt didn’t invite me to come climb with you I wanna redpoint it!

How many 5.15s are natural? One? In Washington alone I can name more 14s with significant amounts of glue applied this year than all other natural 5.14s. Even the newish granite the 5.14 in miller river is chipped lol.

It’s just kinda the nature of hard sport climbs. They are already ugly as hell. I just would be surprised if we go from our hardest climbs being chipped to them magically not being chipped.

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

Haha I was in a bad mood and unjustifiably take it out on you. However the route isn’t just chipped it is just rocks Bryan found on the ground and glued to the wall (at least that’s what he told me). I agree that route is probably closer to 12c than 13a but I’m just offended you/jt didn’t invite me to come climb with you I wanna redpoint it!

How many 5.15s are natural? One? In Washington alone I can name more 14s with significant amounts of glue applied this year than all other natural 5.14s. Even the newish granite the 5.14 in miller river is chipped lol.

It’s just kinda the nature of hard sport climbs. They are already ugly as hell. 

Featured steep rock is typically not the best quality… go figure 

Yoda Jedi Knight wrote:

Eh. I’m also a little dissatisfied that the first 15c is an endurance route requiring a nonstandard length of rope. Same with Jumbo Love OG. How hard is Freerider if you link the whole thing? Might be our first 5.16.

Honnold said linking both pitches of the Enduro into the Round Table Traverse clocked in around 13- (instead of 12D). I believe that would be the only noteworthy section affected by having no rope/an arbitrarily long rope. 

If you're not into endurance routes, I have some bad news about the world's first 15A (La Rambla), 15B (the original Jumbo Love), 15C (Change) and 15D (Silence). 

Matt Miccioli wrote:

Honnold said linking both pitches of the Enduro into the Round Table Traverse clocked in around 13- (instead of 12D). I believe that would be the only noteworthy section affected by having no rope/an arbitrarily long rope. 

If you're not into endurance routes, I have some bad news about the world's first 15A (La Rambla), 15B (the original Jumbo Love), 15C (Change) and 15D (Silence). 

Lol I was joking about Freerider but yeah, I have less appreciation for the endurance routes. Although, I think Silence can be done on an 80m rope.

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

This is actually a great question! My guess is a lot of 5.15’s are natural in that they do not have drilled holds or holds added via glue. 

The composition of low quality rock I have developed which is significantly better than most the limestone I have climbed. You can just whack the limestone with a hammer till you get the hold you want. If you want the hold bigger just wack everything around. If a hold gets ripped off by a person, that kinda defines that it was choss. If shit rips of with your hands, a hammer wack can probably/could have taken out everything around it. If you can keep waking it with a hammer till you get the hold you want, that is manufacturing in my mind.

So Biographie is ugly?

You show a picture of the cliff to a non climber and they would have no idea if it’s a hard climb or easy climb. If someone took a picture of that wall with no context I would have no idea where biographie is. Meanwhile free rider I would recognize pictures of.

 What about Jaws II?

Jaws while looking awesome from the ground, from a far would be hard to distinguish the line from a far. Contrast that with cannon, which just looks cooler from a far.

 There are a fair share of 5.15’s that are ugly, but I think also a fair share that are aesthetically pleasing. I don’t think the ratio is any different for routes of other grades. I’m assuming you do?

I think granite >sandstone> limestone >basalt. I’m not dissing the climbs but if we take the most famous hard trad climband compare that the hardest sport climbs in Washington; City park, en passé look way cooler than the sickness or pornstar. Climbs that have easily definable features are generally what people consider aesthetic.

You are assuming that somehow all 5.15’s (or at least the vast majority) are manufactured. I can’t confirm if that’s true or not, but would be shocked if MOST 5.15’s were.

I believe Ethan Pringle , Keenan, and Jimmy Webb stated empath was super cool because it was natural.

I don’t care about athestics, I will try anything but I can acknowledge a splitter crack just looks better than a sea of choss.

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

The composition of low quality rock I have developed which is significantly better than most the limestone I have climbed. You can just whack the limestone with a hammer till you get the hold you want. If you want the hold bigger just wack everything around. If a hold gets ripped off by a person, that kinda defines that it was choss. If shit rips of with your hands, a hammer wack can probably/could have taken out everything around it. If you can keep waking it with a hammer till you get the hold you want, that is manufacturing in my mind.

That’s fair. I still stand by my statement that there are far more than one 5.15 that are not manufactured even by your loose standards (most actual developers would categorize that as cleaning to an extent). And by good golly, find some better limestone if that’s your only experience

You show a picture of the cliff to a non climber and they would have no idea if it’s a hard climb or easy climb. If someone took a picture of that wall with no context I would have no idea where biographie is. Meanwhile free rider I would recognize pictures of.

This has zero bearing on my argument as my whole point was that I don’t think 5.15’s are proportional more ugly than any other grade. 

I believe Ethan Pringle , Keenan, and Jimmy Webb stated empath was super cool because it was natural.

So because Empath is super cool due to it being natural that equates to every other 5.15 not being natural? Seems like a reach.

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

Chipping was ok then and not ok now, or did I miss something? 

I don't know if I'd agree with that. I have climbed a whole hog's worth of drilled climbs put up in the last decade, in Washington and Nevada and Utah. The recent guidebooks even mention it as an accepted tactic. The only difference in my mind is drilling generally reserved for piles of choss that wouldn't make good free climbs without a lot of help.

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

I don't know if I'd agree with that. I have climbed a whole hog's worth of drilled climbs put up in the last decade, in Washington and Nevada and Utah. The recent guidebooks even mention it as an accepted tactic. The only difference in my mind is drilling generally reserved for piles of choss that wouldn't make good free climbs without a lot of help.

I’m sure some local areas have their own ethics and/or reasoning why it’s acceptable (for example; quarries are commonly accepted as totally fine to manufacture and chossy limestone is often accepted as being ok to reinforce via glue). Obviously lesser travelled areas can get away with more, but I still think that your examples do not necessarily mean it is the overall trend and seems highly anecdotal. The overall accepted ethic across the US is that drilling pockets, gluing on holds, or creating new holds via chisel is no longer accepted…and hasn’t really been for the last decade or so. The well trafficked areas that have tried these tactics in the last decade or so have nearly all been met with controversy. We saw it with Ten Sleep and more recently (albeit far more egregious) boulders around SLC and Joe’s.

Again, I’m speaking as a whole and speaking purely on the direction I believe developing sport routes is going in the US. The overall trend is certainly moving away from manufacturing.

Genuinely curious though; How many of those routes were done in the last 2-3 decades and where are they at? 

Go Back to Super Topo wrote:

Genuinely curious though; How many of those routes were done in the last 2-3 decades and where are they at? 

The Washington routes are not even 10 years old. I don’t think chipping an existing route or even a boulder even remotely compares. There is a survey out on maybe climbing.com that says 80% of climbers are okay with one or two chipped holds up a blank face. Like I have said earlier I don’t think anyone is going to drill a whole climb, it is logistically too difficult for most but I do think people will find a limestone cave and remove the jugs and maybe drill a few pockets is probably the most efficient way to find a new 5.15.

Yoda Jedi Knight wrote:

Lol I was joking about Freerider but yeah, I have less appreciation for the endurance routes. Although, I think Silence can be done on an 80m rope.

lol these "endurance" routes all have double-digit boulder cruxes...resistance climbing does not mean less interesting or less intricate movement. 

Princess Puppy Lovr wrote:

The Washington routes are not even 10 years old. I don’t think chipping an existing route or even a boulder even remotely compares.

Interesting about the Washington climbs. Are you not listing them for a specific reason or is it just that prevalent? I agree that chipping an existing route compares, especially established ones, is entirely different….but this sort of shit starts somewhere… 

There is a survey out on maybe climbing.com that says 80% of climbers are okay with one or two chipped holds up a blank face. Like I have said earlier I don’t think anyone is going to drill a whole climb, it is logistically too difficult for most but I do think people will find a limestone cave and remove the jugs and maybe drill a few pockets is probably the most efficient way to find a new 5.15.

We’ll have to agree to disagree with that one as a whole. I think if that were the case Kinder would have just “hammered” off the huge jug rest on Life if Villians (is that the one with the huge jug in the middle/second half?) to make it absolutely limit. I also think you’d see far more 5.15’s. I just don’t think it’s as acceptable among those developing those routes as you think it is. Especially when it comes to blatant drilled pockets. Creative cleaning is far more prevalent among the 5.13 and 5.14 developing community in my finding as they often have something to prove, or at least they think so. Those developing 5.15’s don’t strike me as the same type to prove something. They are climbing at that level because they have a way, at an elite level, to challenge themselves. Logically, making a route they are developing easier completely negates that.

I will succumb that your idea of what creating a new 5.15 is far more likely in the future than your friend chode riders vision of progressively making holds harder by adding glue. 

Fan Y wrote:

lol these "endurance" routes all have double-digit boulder cruxes...resistance climbing does not mean less interesting or less intricate movement. 

That's a totally valid opinion. To me personally, it is less interesting to see someone push through pump on a 50+ meter route rather than pull off some extremely hard crux moves.

Yoda Jedi Knight wrote:

That's a totally valid opinion. To me personally, it is less interesting to see someone push through pump on a 50+ meter route rather than pull off some extremely hard crux moves.

I agree and I’m much less interested in extensions than super long routes when pushing grades. At least longer routes potentially yield more cool moves.

With that said, I’m not sure I’d call many of these 5.15‘s “endurance routes”. Never been on ‘em and it’s purely semantics, but to me that implies the crux/difficulty is due to the “pump factor”. Aside from maybe La Rambla (even that seems like single hardest moves are higher up) it doesn’t seem like many are 5.15 are such due to their length (i.e. V9/V10 that goes on for 130 ft).

Most of the videos and accounts of those who have done the first of each grade make it seem like there is usually a fairly defined crux. Maybe it’s good filmography, but all the documenting of Silence and even Jumbo Love portray them as having at least one singular section that took the FA longer than the rest of the climb. I don’t recall anyone trying to gain endurance or pumping out at the anchors repeatedly so it would seem like the common theme was always getting stronger…besides, if I want extremely hard crux moves I’ll watch V16 and V17 bouldering videos…but some of you even want to criticize Alphane as being an endurance boulder….whatever that means   

The Gentleman above is incorrect,

The first 5.15b was flex Luther right?

Tommy Caldwell for the humble win!

Ezra Ellis wrote:

The Gentleman above is incorrect,

The first 5.15b was flex Luther right?

Tommy Caldwell for the humble win!

Siegrist downgraded it back to .15a?

But would it count if it's TRd? 

Daniel Chode Rider wrote:

I think the future will be strong climbers drilling in caves, trying the routes, filling in pockets/the back of pockets with epoxy to make the routes worse until they have the grade they're looking for.

No one would ever do that, ever.