Closing climbing areas due to native American cultural significance.

The BLM is closing Massacre Rocks, Idaho to climbers due to the site’s historic and cultural ties to the Shoshone-Bannock people. The Sho-Ban people have occupied the land for 12,000 years. I am half native American myself and I completely understand why they would like to preserve a location that is connected to their culture. 

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/climbing-banned-massacre-rocks-idaho/?utm_campaign=&utm_content=&utm_medium=organic-social&utm_source=Outside%20Magazine-facebook&fbclid=IwAR0wQyMpgVXgd4DnGLayK_eMSSKgzX1su-EUiw6d7V30bsKxc8YUk0rpW0o

The thing I want to point out and discuss is the fact that many of the most popular climbing areas in America were also inhabited for thousands of years by native Americans. Is this new ruling setting a precedent to close other climbing areas?

Red Rocks NV.  

As many as six different Native American cultures may have been present at Red Rock over the millennia. The following chronology is an approximation, from the present to ancient pre-history:

Southern Paiute - 900 to modern times

Payatan Culture - 900 to early historic times in the 1800s

Ancestral Puebloan - 1 AD to 1150

Pinto/Gypsum - (Archaic) 3500 BC to 1 AD

San Dieguito - 7000 to 5500 BC

Paleo-Indians (Tule Springs) - 11,000 to 8,000 BC

Red River Gorge 

"Contains 664 known prehistoric and historic sites that date from more than 11,000 years ago to the 20th century."

Yosemite

"The region and Valley itself has been inhabited for nearly 4,000 years, although humans may have first visited the area as long as 8,000 to 10,000 years ago."

Moab

 "Moab area and surrounding country was inhabited by a tribe of ancient Indians, the Ancestral Puebloans (Anasazi), perhaps as early as 10,000 years ago. The present town of Moab sits on the ruins of pueblo farming communities dating from the 11th and 12th centuries."

Joshua Tree 

"The earliest known residents of the land in and around what later became Joshua Tree National Park were the people of the Pinto Culture, who lived and hunted here between 8000 and 4000 BCE"

Source Wikipedia.

I know the list goes on and on. Pretty interesting. I love ancient history. The story of mankind, and how we got to where we are today has always fascinated me. I also love climbing. I would like to hear what you guys think about this topic.

Yup everything is sacred to somebody. I was driving through monument valley in AZ, years ago and wondered if all the beer cans and broken glass from liquor bottles on the side of the road and bullet holes in the rocks were sacred as well.

Let's close Mt. Rushmore. 

I just finished a great book, Empire of the Summer Moon, and one of the interesting takeaways is that “in America's attempt to reconcile the atrocities that Americans committed against Native Americans, a lot of the Indian story was maybe rewritten a little bit to leave out some of those atrocities” that Native tribes committed against each other in the pre-settler era.

Tribe on tribe warfare, claiming of land, genocide, torture, slavery, rape, etc.

Pertaining to this thread, sure, there are lots of areas that were “inhabited for thousands of years by native Americans,” but Native Americans aren’t one singular group of people.  

If we’re going to start regulating use of land to mollify the last people it was stolen from, why not the second-to-last people?  Or third to last?  We could start by asking Comanche tribes to equitably share proceeds of the present day Comanche Spur Casino, which is located on lands stolen from Apaches and Kiowas, who took it from the Choctaw (of which I am 1/8).

Yep, F Wheeler.  Great book and a must read.  Bummer about Massacre, that sounded like a great climbing area.  Reminds me of the silly closing of that area in Tahoe WITH A FOUR LANE HIGHWAY through it cuz cultural values.  Uh, ok.

I have yet to see statements from the Shoshone-Bannock people, and would love to see some of their perspectives on the issue. I have only seen climbers and the BLM jawing back and forth at one another. I hope it is not a "white savior complex" situation, and I would appreciate it if their perspectives were given more attention. 

My church and my commune with my God is via the beautiful rocks and the climbs on those rocks, made by God, but that never gets figured into any discussion about using the rocks for my religion. 

Camdon Kaywrote:

I have yet to see statements from the Shoshone-Bannock people, and would love to see some of their perspectives on the issue. I have only seen climbers and the BLM jawing back and forth at one another. I hope it is not a "white savior complex" situation, and I would appreciate it if their perspectives were given more attention. 

I spoke with a tribal member about the Massacre Rocks and the closure. He has been an activist around the issue and was willing to speak about it. I had a hard time finding someone to talk to, probably due to the sacred nature of the site. I'm trying to limit what I am saying here only to the most pertinent information. He informed me that the area had been the historical wintering site for the Shoshone. There are grave sites in the area as well as artifacts. He stated that there were reports of graves having been disturbed and artifacts removed. The beliefs of the Shoshone, as I understood what he was saying, are that the cliffs have spiritual significance and that climbing on them is disrespectful. There is more to it than this, but it is not really my story to tell. I had also found some work written by a former ISU professor (I will try to dig it up again) which stated that the site would have been the location where sacred ceremonies would have been performed. These things are not generally spoken of to outsiders so I do not think that anyone would share stories. His argument was that there had been an agreement that the land was supposed to be managed by the Bureau of Reclamation and that there was not supposed to be outside activity on the land - motorcycles, 4-wheeling or climbing. 

 My thought process on this has been evolving. We have been asked to stay out of this area in particular. There is a lot of rock in the region and there is not a move to ban climbing in other areas. Being respectful of this location due to the ceremonial significance is not a huge ask. 

Commence the gnashing of teeth, wringing of hands, and wailing about slippery slopes.

Big Redwrote:

Commence the gnashing of teeth, wringing of hands, and wailing about slippery slopes.

Thanks for the valuable contribution to the thread!

Big Red, you are so wrong. Cave Rock, Devil’s Tower, now Massacre—with ‘rumblings’ about numerous other areas—as suggested by the OP. Every climbing area in the country could be subject to such potential closures—including gyms which are built on land once utilized by Native Americans. I’m not saying that all areas will end up being closed or restricted, but it is an issue that we will be addressing with increased frequency in the years ahead.

I am not trying to excuse or justify the way the earlier occupants of this continent were treated by the later arrivals from Europe and elsewhere. ( It is worth noting that many of those later arrivals headed here because they were committing similar atrocities against each other ‘back home’ and at least some of those who were here ‘first’ were also doing such things to each other—humanity hasn’t historically been very humane). I just don’t believe that it is right to place the burden of ‘correcting’ for past wrongs on the current and future generations.

Do not forget the other major group inhabiting these lands, such areas in particular are historic and sacred to the citizens of the USA which have been inhabiting them for ~250 years.

It’s almost like time is continuous and that any given snapshot of history cannot encompass the totality of what is fluid and evolving.

Taking into account the info presented so far, particularly Guy’s post and Tom’s above, it would seem that you gain “Legitimacy” somewhere in the 300-700 year range.  Much more and you’re ancient history.  Any less and you’re too modern.  

Guy can petition for his climbs and “ceremonies” to be historically sanctioned and respected in 2320 or thereabouts.  Better eat his veggies.  

for a group of people where many believe the names of routes are too sacred to be changed, there's at least a little bit of irony in thinking a burial site isn't too sacred to climb on. 

Shaun Johnsonwrote:

The BLM is closing Massacre Rocks, Idaho to climbers due to the site’s historic and cultural ties to the Shoshone-Bannock people. The Sho-Ban people have occupied the land for 12,000 years. I am half native American myself and I completely understand why they would like to preserve a location that is connected to their culture. 

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/climbing-banned-massacre-rocks-idaho/?utm_campaign=&utm_content=&utm_medium=organic-social&utm_source=Outside%20Magazine-facebook&fbclid=IwAR0wQyMpgVXgd4DnGLayK_eMSSKgzX1su-EUiw6d7V30bsKxc8YUk0rpW0o

The thing I want to point out and discuss is the fact that many of the most popular climbing areas in America were also inhabited for thousands of years by native Americans. Is this new ruling setting a precedent to close other climbing areas?

Red Rocks NV.  

As many as six different Native American cultures may have been present at Red Rock over the millennia. The following chronology is an approximation, from the present to ancient pre-history:

Southern Paiute - 900 to modern times

Payatan Culture - 900 to early historic times in the 1800s

Ancestral Puebloan - 1 AD to 1150

Pinto/Gypsum - (Archaic) 3500 BC to 1 AD

San Dieguito - 7000 to 5500 BC

Paleo-Indians (Tule Springs) - 11,000 to 8,000 BC

Red River Gorge 

"Contains 664 known prehistoric and historic sites that date from more than 11,000 years ago to the 20th century."

Yosemite

"The region and Valley itself has been inhabited for nearly 4,000 years, although humans may have first visited the area as long as 8,000 to 10,000 years ago."

Moab

 "Moab area and surrounding country was inhabited by a tribe of ancient Indians, the Ancestral Puebloans (Anasazi), perhaps as early as 10,000 years ago. The present town of Moab sits on the ruins of pueblo farming communities dating from the 11th and 12th centuries."

Joshua Tree 

"The earliest known residents of the land in and around what later became Joshua Tree National Park were the people of the Pinto Culture, who lived and hunted here between 8000 and 4000 BCE"

Source Wikipedia.

I know the list goes on and on. Pretty interesting. I love ancient history. The story of mankind, and how we got to where we are today has always fascinated me. I also love climbing. I would like to hear what you guys think about this topic.

Giving the land back is the least we could do after what America did to their tribe. To be fair we should give all of it back.

https://www.yahoo.com/now/climbing-permanently-banned-massacre-rocks-022637767.html

“There is a 30-day protest period, which ends on November 24, during which people can lodge complaints about the BLM's proposal, but…the Access Fund is not planning on protesting.”

Weak.

Tradibanwrote:

Giving the land back is the least we could do after what America did to their tribe. To be fair we should give all of it back.

If you really feel that way you could lead by example and stop climbing at Tahquitz in deference to the Soboba’s wishes :)

This is why I solely climb the slippery slope, it was only used as a latrine by the local tribes.

This thread should be interesting…how long before Richard Gilbert chimes in with his 2 cents 

I'm good with some of these closures. Being good with some of them doesn't mean I'm advocating for more of them. Case by case, that's my view. I don't really care that some of my fellow climbers act like they own the rocks.

F Wheelerwrote:

If you really feel that way you could lead by example and stop climbing at Tahquitz in deference to the Soboba’s wishes :)

Regardless of official status I will continue to climb where I please and how I please. Closing to the general public will keep the yahoos away, win-win.