Should outdoor grades be regraded to gym grades?

Would like to hear your opinion on regrading outdoor grades. Have heard of multiple instance where gym climbers are go outside on 5.lows and getting hella sandbagged, therefore increasing risk as a new leader (esp trad). I myself have also been sandbagged and am fully unaware if a route is sandbagged or not until I really hop on it. Of course there are ways of identifying such as observing the year of the FA etc etc.

What’s your take on regrading to increase safety and keep up with gym grades?

i think we should petition to make sandbagging illegal.

Y’all are out of your mind. 

Getting sandbagged is part of the game and dealing with it is what grows experienced climbers. Safety is not guaranteed - be educated and practice making smart decisions.

Edit: and/or, nice troll.

I don't think gymbies are going from top roping indoors to immediately leading trad. Sounds like a Darwin award in the making.

I do think gym grades should be set in reality. Just because there's a crimp doesn't make a route 5.11.

Edit: nice troll. I'll leave my comment to throw shade at the local gym

Gym routes should all claim to be 5.9+. If you can't figure it out, go bowling.

It's time we recognised that grade inflation is a foundational principle of the climbing economy. No-one wants their sends to be devalued or downgraded, this ruins confidence and can cause a recession, so all climbs must slowly increase in grade, year on year, which the Federal Climbing Reserve sets with its interest rate.

If gym attendance and crag crowding is too high, everyone is too overconfident, and the grade inflation is too high, so climbs are downgraded until people loose confidence and give up the sport.

If gyms are struggling and local climbs are getting dirty and overgrown, the grade inflation rate is increased and climbs are upgraded until everyone is psyched, the send train starts chugging and the climbing scene is restored.

trad monkeywrote:

 therefore increasing risk as a new leader (esp trad).

No.  Even though this is a troll, I'll respond like it isn't.  Either you can place good gear or you cannot.  The difficulty grade of the route has nothing to do with whether or not you place gear that will hold a lead fall.  This is as true on 5.5 as it is on 5.12.

Evan Joneswrote:

I don't think gymbies are going from top roping indoors to immediately leading trad. Sounds like a Darwin award in the making.

Visit the gunks on a weekend. There are many contenders for the award. 

No. One of the great joys in life is watching a 5.12 Prince of plastic get spanked on a trad 5.8 outside. 

trad monkeywrote:

Would like to hear your opinion on regrading outdoor grades. Have heard of multiple instance where gym climbers are go outside on 5.lows and getting hella sandbagged, therefore increasing risk as a new leader (esp trad). I myself have also been sandbagged and am fully unaware if a route is sandbagged or not until I really hop on it. Of course there are ways of identifying such as observing the year of the FA etc etc.

What’s your take on regrading to increase safety and keep up with gym grades?

With this argument, we should change gym grades, not outdoor grades. However, outdoor climbing is very different from indoor climbing. What about friction slabs? Those are not in gyms, should we get rid of those because “a new climber might fall on it?” This post seems like it was made by a climber who just started climbing outdoors, and can’t understand why he can climb 5.11 in the gym but not outdoors.

I like that “gym grades” are considered universal and perfect, but in reality, they are worse than outdoor grades for variation. At my home gym I climb half a number grade harder than outside (onsight), but at some gyms I have to project climbs half a number grade under my onsight anywhere, any rock type grade. How about let’s just vote on some community website where most the climbs we do are listed and then the grade is average for a consensus?

The Pilot program in Ten Sleep and Moe's Valley has been very successful. Word is the rollout to Index is planned for later this year

If a person can't logically see the risk differential between a Gym a very controlled environment that is going to mitigate risk as much as possible and a random ass rock poking up out of the ground where other random personalities have "developed" them.  They've led themselves astray. 

The onus falls on the gyms and their routesetters. The YDS and its counter parts weren't created in a gym environment. But that's what most, if not all, gyms are basing their numbers off of, so it's on them to lower their inflated numbers.

I'll bite. Climbing outdoors is not a "safe" activity/sport, nor should it be created/manufactured to be safe for the masses. Outdoor climbing is supposed to be an adventure sport, the unknown, not the same as gym climbing. Feeling safe while climbing outdoors is done by good risk management (have a general idea of where your comfort zone ends and what risk you consider acceptable), safety mindset, training, dialing in your systems on the ground, placing tons of gear in on the ground to see what " super good enough" looks like, and your preparation and homework prior to getting after your objective. The grading system in my opinion is a general ballparks of what difficulty to expect not it SHALL be this or SHALL be that, not to be taken as gospel. This system was devised and is used by humans which means it's fallible. There will always be some sort of bias, conflict, ego, insecurity, arrogance, or difference of opinion that will be involved when making these grades. Should outdoor grades be changed to make gym climbers feel safer? No, gym climbers need to put the work in to make sure they are ready to go outdoors and understands all aspects of what they are committing to.(ie "ok, I understand that I haven't done this type of climbing before and this may be harder or different than what I'm used to") They just have to understand that the two, outdoor and gym climbing, are different and adapt accordingly. 

Michael Hallwrote:

I'll bite. Climbing outdoors is not a "safe" activity/sport, nor should it be created/manufactured to be safe for the masses. Outdoor climbing is supposed to be an adventure sport, the unknown, not the same as gym climbing. Feeling safe while climbing outdoors is done by good risk management (have a general idea of where your comfort zone ends and what risk you consider acceptable), safety mindset, training, dialing in your systems on the ground, placing tons of gear in on the ground to see what " super good enough" looks like, and your preparation and homework prior to getting after your objective. The grading system in my opinion is a general ballparks of what difficulty to expect not it SHALL be this or SHALL be that, not to be taken as gospel. This system was devised and is used by humans which means it's fallible. There will always be some sort of bias, conflict, ego, insecurity, arrogance, or difference of opinion that will be involved when making these grades. Should outdoor grades be changed to make gym climbers feel safer? No, gym climbers need to put the work in to make sure they are ready to go outdoors and understands all aspects of what they are committing to.(ie "ok, I understand that I haven't done this type of climbing before and this may be harder or different than what I'm used to") They just have to understand that the two, outdoor and gym climbing, are different and adapt accordingly. 

And trad climbers gotta make sure they are ready for aid before they try to redpoint aid something serious like The Pirate. Can’t be just buying your way up things when it comes to aiding splitters.

wait, none of what I just said makes sense. I’ll see myself out 

I really want to re-do outdoor grades to gym grades.  It's the only way I will ever be able to climb 5.11 trad.  

Kai Larsonwrote:

I really want to re-do outdoor grades to gym grades.  It's the only way I will ever be able to climb 5.11 trad.  

That's utter bs and you know it. Just stop already. Quit making excuses.

Anyone who's driven to Yosemite up Old Priest Grade Road knows it was a very hard grade. Around 20%. They built a new bypass road and it's only 5% grade. So they are already regrading.

Climbing grades do evolve too. Leaning Tower was a Grade V. But a lot of people now consider it a grade IV.

I give the Nose of El Cap an A+ grade, but some consider it an A-.

Wait, did you mean climbing RATINGS?