REI and the body positivity movement

Brooks K wrote:

My thoughts exactly

If I still eat 6 ice cream sandwhichs a day who is my model supposed to be?

marketing is only meant to separate you from your dollars, and just about any company acting like their marketing is anything but is intellectual dishonesty.

That being said representation matters, and seeing plus sized models isn’t going to make people fat anymore than skinny models will make people skinny. You should embrace your body and health, and being overweight doesn’t mean you don’t want to be healthy. My body type always struggles to stay lean for climbing and our bubble can seem extremely fat phobic because we also internalize that shit.

At the end of the day, it’s just ads. Maybe they make people feel like they fit in more, or are a more accurate representation of the demo that shops at REI - whatever. Some people are fat, so what. They are people too. 

Thanks for the responses. It sounds like a good mix of opinions ranging from “it’s good to have representation” to “I’d rather see the ideal”. We all agree the marketing department is going to do what makes the most money.

I think it would be worth separating models on shopping pages / catalogs. That’s just useful to see what different sizes look like. Let’s instead focus on ads and cover pages.

I’m not convinced by the argument “it’s not affecting you so it doesn’t matter”. I would rather have my kids see role models. And no, that’s not heroin chic. But maybe it’s not fair for me to think that this will normalize an unhealthy lifestyle. Maybe it is, I don’t know.

SinRopa Dos wrote:

Not shaming and not encouraging improvement aren’t mutually exclusive.  Refusing to admit that obesity is a problem is itself a problem.  A lot of the more vocal proponents of body positively actively push “fat acceptance,” which often refuses to even acknowledge the health concerns of being obese (ie “healthy at any size”), and seeks to establish fatness as a sort of protected class.

For example: https://www.healthline.com/health/fat-acceptance-vs-body-positivity#To-be-seen,-you-have-to-be-societys-idea-of-a-good-fatty-

The author complains that “as a fat dietitian, people are less likely to take me seriously than a thinner dietitian.”  Well…yeah.  You wouldn’t hire a climbing coach that had to claw their way up 5.7, or a guide that didn’t bother tying in correctly, right?

WF WF51: My old account got deactivated and I didn’t bother coming back until recently.  Sort of regretting it now.  I see they’re still doing that post limit nonsense and haven’t solved the CBD spam issue either.

I agree there are issues, especially with parts that you bring up, but I do see the end result as a net positive. Shame is not a healthy driving force for change and it seems to be an overwhelming tactic in American society. Also, just in general, obese people deal with discrimination based around their bodies. We should probably do something about that, right?

We are talking here about obese people being shown in photos. OP is literally reacting to obese people just being seen in advertising, and is implying it’s a problem. Please explain to me how this isn’t shaming, and how it’s encouraging improvement because I’m a bit lost on that.

Yoda Jedi Knight wrote:

I’m not convinced by the argument “it’s not affecting you so it doesn’t matter”. I would rather have my kids see role models. And no, that’s not heroin chic. But maybe it’s not fair for me to think that this will normalize an unhealthy lifestyle. Maybe it is, I don’t know.

I don't think fat people existing is normalizing an unhealthy lifestyle, and fat people can also be role models in other ways. If you have a fat kid, you can hope all you want that they lose weight and change their lifestyle but if that's their lot in life would be nice if they felt like they fit in no?

Matt N wrote:

This is going beyond a US only issue - as with all trendy things we export around the world. Bad diets and low exercise will not age well. Doctors/family/friends/media are afraid to confront the issue currently, though. Oh well. Social Security can't afford lots of healthy, old adults. Although Medicare can't afford the unhealthy ones, too. Darn. Sorry, got no solution tonight. 

Wow. Never thought about social security not being able to afford the healthy aged. Thanks for sharing. I mean,  I have never planned on social security, but this is eye opening.

I've seen heavy weight people climb some hard stuff in and outside. Just a few weeks ago I saw a women who was heavier than the recent models in the rei ads lead a steep 5.12 in approach shoes. I’m fine with models that are non typical weight, it does not threaten me or make me feel like I need to ‘help them conform’. 

Is there a link to OP’s article or a similar one? 

Here is the photo showing the heaviest model they used in the latest mailing. Personally, I dont see this photo showcasing an unhealthy lifestyle. I feel its the opposite, it looks like to reach that overlook, a lot of physical activity would be required. Also the person looks like they are having fun, being outdoors, getting exercise. To me, they look healthy, even if their BMI level is not what the OP feels is ideal, I imagine this person could be quite fit at this weight. 

If the objection is to "normalizing an unhealthy lifestyle", then complain about beer and soda companies using thin models. This is the opposite, showing that healthy outdoor activities are accessible to everyone.

Kevin Neville wrote:

If the objection is to "normalizing an unhealthy lifestyle", then complain about beer and soda companies using thin models. This is the opposite, showing that healthy outdoor activities are accessible to everyone.

100% this. Tons of ads these days showing super fit healthy looking people drinking booze and soda. 

Also, think about it like this, if you use models that look like elite athletes doing outdoor things ( which there are plenty of in that same ad ), how does that make someone with above average BMI feel? They are going to feel like, 'if I ever get in shape maybe I could try that'. But they put someone who is more similar to their body type then they think 'that looks fun, I bet I could do that!'. 

People also need to remember they may be genetically advantaged when it comes to bodyweight. I know myself, even in my 50s, I stay pretty lean without too much difficulty despite a less than ideal diet, and can easily drop 5-7lbs in a few weeks to get in send shape for a trip by moving my dinner time to 6:00pm and walking to meet my daughter at school ( 2 miles ) each day.  If this is you, you need to get out of the habit of looking at people with a high BMI and thinking thats all they need to do to lose weight. It is NOT the case. A lot of people need to do much more severe calorie restriction, and increases in exercise for half the results of us people that have it easy. 

Im done here, but I want to finish by saying I think there is room for both types of models. Its cool seeing the pro climbers or alpinists on crazy hard stuff in the ad, and I personally think its positive and great to show people who dont look like athletes being outdoors and even trying hard stuff too, because in reality, they can actually climb/hike/run a lot harder than you think, and maybe even harder than you. 

SinRopa Dos wrote:

How would we feel if the REI crew sitting around the campfire was smoking cigarettes?  Would advocating for the mag to go tobacco-free be considered shaming smokers?  

Let me know how your feel about alcohol being advertised during NFL broadcasts. 

Kevin Neville wrote:

If the objection is to "normalizing an unhealthy lifestyle", then complain about beer and soda companies using thin models. This is the opposite, showing that healthy outdoor activities are accessible to everyone.

It depends on perspective. If this is “body positivity”, they are saying “Don’t be down on yourself because you’re overweight”, which is completely agreeable, but if they’re saying “It’s healthy to be overweight” they would be wrong and just pandering to a market.

SinRopa Dos wrote:

Not shaming and not encouraging improvement aren’t mutually exclusive.  Refusing to admit that obesity is a problem is itself a problem.  A lot of the more vocal proponents of body positively actively push “fat acceptance,” which often refuses to even acknowledge the health concerns of being obese (ie “healthy at any size”), and seeks to establish fatness as a sort of protected class.

For example: https://www.healthline.com/health/fat-acceptance-vs-body-positivity#To-be-seen,-you-have-to-be-societys-idea-of-a-good-fatty-

The author complains that “as a fat dietitian, people are less likely to take me seriously than a thinner dietitian.”  Well…yeah.  You wouldn’t hire a climbing coach that had to claw their way up 5.7, or a guide that didn’t bother tying in correctly, right?

WF WF51: My old account got deactivated and I didn’t bother coming back until recently.  Sort of regretting it now.  I see they’re still doing that post limit nonsense and haven’t solved the CBD spam issue either.

MP wants to keep the compost pile at a reasonable size. Aesthetics, odor, and so on.  

Thanks to all the epidemiologists in here who are experts on body weight and morbidity/mortality of fat people.  Love all the endocrinologists weighing in on whether or not this is a moral failure on the part of fatties or if there's something more complicated going on.  Thanks to all the behavioral health experts speaking to whether or not this particular type of advertising helps or hurts this non-crisis health crisis.

Really useful conversation!  Glad to finally read a thread about body positivity that doesn't just devolve into people spouting useless crap that all boils down to either "fat people are humans and can do what they want" or "fat people gross me out".

Getting more people to participate in and care about outdoor recreation is hugely beneficial to access— when it comes down to deciding if public lands should be protected or opened up to extractive industries, 500 out of shape day hikers matter a heck of a lot more than a few toned climbers.

If we’re going to be mad at REI for anything, let’s focus on the fact that some of their newer locations don’t sell cord and webbing by the foot! 

I will say that I have observed fat people with surprising aerobic fitness. Lotta fat people on the PCT this summer. I got to see some of it on an ultra run (I'm on team skinny) and was surprised. Given that I was around Bishop, I guess they either started out even heavier or didn't care to change their body compositions.

Anecdote that might be interesting:

This was told to me by my mom a few years ago. Towards the end of my dad's life, he had very limited mobility, and of course resisted using mobility aids. (He had degenerative condition that affected many aspects of day to day life, and had a relatively normal BMI.) One thing he did start using was electric scooter shopping carts at the grocery store. Once she convinced him to try them, he loved being able to roam the store on his own, something he literally couldn't do on his own for the previous couple years. Well, one day my parents were very slowly (as fast as my dad could go) making their way across the Costco parking lot to get him a scooter. Out if nowhere a middle age morbidly obese couple start doing their best impression of a sprint to beat my dad to the last two scooters, which they took. Later that day, my dad fell over due to hypotension, one of the reasons he shouldn't have been walking around.

I realize that all body types are capable of being jerks, and obviously I'm biased since it was my family in question. But to me, body positivity isn't about inclusion, it's about making fatness a protected class, like handicapped or being an elder, which I disagree with. 

More broadly, I think  consumers would be better off if clothing companies polarized their fit, rather than working towards "average". For instance, rather than make everything XS-XXL, make a line of clothing for fit people, or make a line of clothing for fat people, but don't try to do it with the same size run. Either devote your brand to one or the other, or create two lines of clothes. I realize the economic factors at play here, but in general I think better products come out of specialization rather than generalization. 

A company I used to work for is currently realizing that they alienated their next generation of customers by only making clothes that fit like a tent. They are now backpedaling, and in the process pissing off their old fat consumer base. It was actually quite humorous from the inside.

Chase Choss wrote:

Personally, for me, I notice that aspirational advertising works better than realistic advertising. I am more likely to feel positively about a coat featured on a rugged Serious Mountaineer on the summit of a Real Mountain than a coat on a guy with a bit of a beer belly top roping 30 ft of gross frozen water. And, well, let's just say I don't end up on beautiful summits very often. Advertising that is "realistic" doesn't work well on me at all. Advertising that is "aspirational" does. This goes for everything -- body type, objectives, etc. I think I'm a fairly traditional mark in this respect -- sell the dream, not the reality.

I sense that this is becoming less true for younger generations, but perhaps with some nuance?

(Anyways, it's always important to remain maximally cynical. The only non-BS goal of advertising is to get people to buy stuff, and REI almost certainly retains firms with armies of psych and stats and neuro phds to design studies that answer questions like the ones above.)

Yes, I think aspirational advertising always works best for everyone, regardless of age, fitness, or body size.

But what someone aspires to can be different.  And yes, I agree, there are probably teams of people with degrees working on optimal marketing strategy for every big-name brand.