Dog rant

William Kwrote:

“CCSO received a video anonymously that shows Pandora running away from a man. The dog then laid on her back “in a submissive manner” and the man with the knife is seen stabbing Pandora repeatedly.”

This seems…somewhat unrelated to the topic  

Adam Burch has been going around threatening dog owners' with stabbing their dogs, including one who was fenced in, and he's bragging about it like he's some sort of white knight protector of children--he literally claims to be imitating special forces guys he met. He has ignored every attempt to discuss de-escalating or simply walking away from these situations. He seems eager to stab a dog in front of his kids rather than seeing it as a situation to be avoided.

Given this level of social miscalibration, I do think this is related to the topic. I don't at all think that Adam Burch can be trusted to judge whether a dog is attacking or not. In fact, he actually described a few situations as dog attacks he experienced, and only one actually included a dog biting anyone, which he didn't mention until well after, because he didn't seem to think the difference between a dog approaching and a dog biting was relevant.

All of this is in the thread, in Adam Burch's own posts, if you care to verify it.

That said, I kind of doubt that the idea of legal consequences is really going to change Burchy's behavior. He probably will just think "better to go to jail than have my kid die". Seeing this situation as life-and-death when it isn't life-and-death is part of the delusion that allows him to see himself as a badass, so he won't let go of it that easily.

I think carrying a knife to protect yourself and your family is a lot like carrying a gun or having a gun in the home for protection--it might make one feel safe, but it in fact greatly increases the danger to you and your loved ones.  

Now I've gone and done it--I've jumped from posting about dogs at crags to posting about climbers and guns. Are there more divisive topics on MP?

Bruno Schullwrote:

I think carrying a knife to protect yourself and your family is a lot like carrying a gun or having a gun in the home for protection--it might make one feel safe, but it in fact greatly increases the danger to you and your loved ones.  

Now I've gone and done it--I've jumped from posting about dogs at crags to posting about climbers and guns. Are there more divisive topics on MP?

Grigris

Booty

Project/fixed draws

Accidents

PC route naming

Chipping

I'm probably missing some

Adam seems a little unhinged. You okay man? What’s with all the threats? 

Maquinna- you forgot retro-bolting 

Rob Rwrote:

Adam seems a little unhinged. You okay man? What’s with all the threats? 

What threats?  

Serious question.

 I’ve not been following much of this thread. I only recall Adam saying if a dog bit one of his kids then he would stab the dog.

Was that the only threat?

Bruno Schullwrote:

I think carrying a knife to protect yourself and your family is a lot like carrying a gun or having a gun in the home for protection--it might make one feel safe, but it in fact greatly increases the danger to you and your loved ones.  

Now I've gone and done it--I've jumped from posting about dogs at crags to posting about climbers and guns. Are there more divisive topics on MP?

Tell me you don’t know much about knives without saying you don’t know much about knives. 

Chad Millerwrote:

What threats?  

Serious question.

 I’ve not been following much of this thread. I only recall Adam saying if a dog bit one of his kids then he would stab the dog.

Was that the only threat?

Just to be clear, in Burchy's original post there was no mention of the dog biting. He's literally just walking up to people who won't leash their dogs and showing them his knife. In his own words:

Adam Burch wrote:

When we go out on walks I've got these two typically to deal with leashless dogs.  When owners refuse to toss the leash on I show them what I have and explain the next steps.  That usually does the trick.  The entitlement and delusional behavior is unreal.

https://www.amazon.com/SABRE-Trigger-Deployment-15-Foot-4-5-Meter/dp/B088JWPH6Y/ref=sr_1_2_mod_primary_new?crid=25AVBH1D1TGQT&keywords=pepper+gel+gun&qid=1661649351&s=sporting-goods&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sprefix=pepper+gel+gu%2Csporting%2C154&sr=1-2

EDIT: In the above quote, "these two" refers to th link to pepper gel, and a picture of a knife. I tried to quote the knife picture but it's not showing.

If you read his further posts, he claims to imitate special forces guys he climbed with, and then describes two "dog attacks" which he experienced: in one case his kid was chased by a dog that had bitten someone previously, but in the other case, the dog was literally fenced, and he just went up and threatened the owner: no biting occurred.

Adam sounds like a troubled person then.  Hopefully he gets the help he needs before someone gets hurl or killed.

The only thing more disturbing about his jokes and enthusiasm for wanting to stab dogs for whatever reason is the support he seems to have it. I hate this website, and honestly the climbing community is not at all what people think it is. Disturbing to see people like Old Lady H feeding into this violent nonsense. Don’t get me wrong I’m all for self defense. But there’s a difference between self defense and whatever this is. 

Hi Adam, 

Putting the trolling aside, and with due respect, there are at least three things about your stance in this thread that I think is troubling, and deserves further consideration.  

First, in your post above, you write, "They are breaking the law and know it."  So, theoretically, your tactics apply to situations where dogs are legally required to be leashed.  What about the places/times where dogs are allowed to be off leash?  Do you use the same tactics then?  I immagine that the law alone might not prevent you from taking the steps you feel are important to protect your family.  So, if you were in a public space where dogs are allowed to be off leash (this might not be realistic in the US but it is very common here in Switzerland) and a dog came "running up" on your kids, would you tell the owners that you might kill their dog? Esentially, you are apear to be using the leash law, or the property fencing laws on your housing complex, as a way to provide a legal and ethical foundation for your behavior, but I am curious how you would behave is this foundation was removed.  The answer to this question is important because it might reveal what motivates your behavior.  What bothers you the most?  Off leash dogs?  People who in some circumstances decide that the law doesn’t apply to them?  The potential threat to your family?  And so on.  

Second, in your post above, you talk about dogs “running up on your family.”  Earlier, you asserted that you wouldn’t wait for a dog to approach and potentially bite your wife or children, you would act first and kill the dog, or, in your language, “take care of the dog.” What about dogs who run up on your family just to say hi?  My dog does this.  In areas where is legally possible to have dogs off leash, which is basically everywhere in Switzerland for two-thirds of the year, my dog often approached others to greet them.  She even barks sometimes at first, before soliciting cuddles.  She’s a small border collie and Labrador mix, like the golden retriever somebody mentioned above; you can literally put you hand into her mouth while she’s eating.  She’s four years old, and she’s never once bitten a human or another dog, or even touched them with her teeth.  That’s just not her nature.   So my understanding of her character is what informs my behavior (And just to be clear, even when I am not legally required to do so, I often lash my dog, for a variety of reasons that I am happy to enumerate).  I don’t know how you would answer my first point (dealing with dogs where they can legally be off leash) but I suspect that if my dog approached your family you might pepper spray her and/or stab her.  So how do you distinguish between dogs that are dangerous and dogs that you only perceive to be dangerous?  Do you think there could be a chance that you would get it wrong and harm a friendly dog?  If you did so, how would you weigh that against the perceived need to protect your family?   Would you attack any dog that is simply in your child’s physical space, even if that dog was quiet and composed, or happy and excited, like my dog?  These questions are important, because they reveal a huge gray area in your reasoning that might lead you to take actions that are terribly misguided and injurious to all, including you and your family.  For example, if a dog ran up on you and your family and was wagging tail and licking your children, or simply standing near your children, and you killed that dog, that would be traumatic for your family, and it would potentially open you to serious legal consequences.  How do you navigate this gray area?  

Last, you have mentioned a number of incidents including a dog biting you on the back of your ankle and a dog chasing your two-year old into traffic.  I think these examples do not  warrant your exaggerated response.  How did that dog bite you on the back of your ankle?  Could not have turned around and simply said, “No,” or “Stop,” or made yourself look tall and big to intimidate the dog, the way that people intimidate, say, bears?  Further, why was your child so afraid of a dog that he ran into traffic?  I’m going to assume that you have introduced your children to many dogs, taught them how to approach dogs, how to extend their hand from a low position with their fingers curled, how to stroke and cuddle dogs, and so on.  They literally teaching this stuff in Swiss pre-school.  Basically, could you solve these problems by encouraging more dog-aware, dog-friendly, and dog-positive behavior, because dogs are part of society, instead of reacting with fear and aggression to the world?  

Once again, with respect and warmth, what I think you need is a nice, friendly, loveable dog, like a golden retriever or a Labrador. That would give you and your family so much love, so much protection, and so much more emotion and physical safety than a knife :)  

Bruno- 

I am a dog owner and I love my dogs. They are great. I also recognize that many many people do not like dogs and are not obligated to deal with my responsibilities. Using that knowledge I err on the side of caution and don’t put my dogs in situations where they might run up on people who might not want to deal with dogs. I leash them unless I am completely certain we will not encounter anyone else where we are going. They are much less likely to cause me unwanted litigation in this situation. And it means I don’t have to apologize for my dogs nearly as often. If you are going to a crag, there is a good chance you will see other people. Leave your dog at home. 

Hi Klaus, 

I don't think others people's emotional/psychological reaction to my dog are my responsability alone--it also falls on other people to control their emotions and feelings, accept that some experiences in the public realm might be challenging or discomfiting, and adapt their behavior accordingly.  We all do in many ways and contexts.  As somebody else wrote on this thread, that's living in a society.  Also, as somebody else wrote, in the absence of laws, there are simply competing versions of what political and ethical philosophers call "the good life."  For some (vocal minority) the good life is a public sphere where they are never made uncomfortable in any way by dogs.  For others (the majority, to which I belong) the good life is accepting the positive and negative aspects of dogs, and finding compromises and solutions that accomodate both.  As I wrote above, I often leash my dog, for her own safety, or out of consideration for others, but I also leave my dog off leash, where and when legally alowed, and I judge it appropriate.  You end with an imperative: what makes you think you can give orders to other people?

I haven’t read but a few posts of this, and I do like Burcheys knives.  Nawmean?

regional and anecdotal:  I carry a large knife while walking my leashed senior dog.  A loose dog is never going to get to my dog and I am comfortable in escalating the situation as far as I deem necessary with the cur.

I know people that have been walking their dogs on a leash, and had those dogs attacked by roaming pitbulls. The maurauders were shot dead.  One leashed dog later died from the altercation.  

In the last year two dogs that I know of were stabbed after they charged out of their yards to attack another dog walker.

Besides dogs and tweakers, we also have coyotes snatching up dogs that are on leashes with their owners on their own porch!  Another reason for the knife while on dog walks. Did I mention I like Burcheys knives?

One thing that many people don't seem to understand is the legal concept of brandishing.  

If you openly carry a weapon and then tell someone you're going to use it on them or their dog if they don't do something that's brandishing.  If the person or dog isn't attacking you or someone else then you've escalated the situation to a deadly confrontation.  You cannot now claim self defense.  You are now considered the aggressor and the other person can legally use deadly force against you to defend themselves or their dog. 

This is still the case in open carry and stand your ground states.  

Bruno-
Other peoples emotions are not your responsibility, I agree with that. However, anything your dogs do is your responsibility. That includes barking loudly while running towards someone else. If your dogs aren’t trained well enough to stay near you until you give them permission to approach someone or something new then they shouldn’t be off leash in places where they might meet new people or things, like a pack llama. If your dog comes running towards me while barking I will assume it has malicious intent. Any jury would hold you responsible for damages it might cause while off leash. If your dog pisses on my rope at the crag you are responsible for making it right.

If it was a 2 year old human running around naked at the base of the crag, napping and urinating on ropes, stealing lunches and screaming at everyone we could all agree that it is the parents responsibility to get thier kids under control and correct any damages. Why can’t you see that it is your responsibility to make sure your dog doesn’t do these things?

Klaus theKwrote:

Bruno-
Other peoples emotions are not your responsibility, I agree with that. However, anything your dogs do is your responsibility. That includes barking loudly while running towards someone else. If your dogs aren’t trained well enough to stay near you until you give them permission to approach someone or something new then they shouldn’t be off leash in places where they might meet new people or things, like a pack llama. If your dog comes running towards me while barking I will assume it has malicious intent. Any jury would hold you responsible for damages it might cause while off leash. If your dog pisses on my rope at the crag you are responsible for making it right.

If it was a 2 year old human running around naked at the base of the crag, napping and urinating on ropes, stealing lunches and screaming at everyone we could all agree that it is the parents responsibility to get thier kids under control and correct any damages. Why can’t you see that it is your responsibility to make sure your dog doesn’t do these things?

While I agree with most of what you said Klaus you need to be be careful with your legal assumptions.  There is a very narrow legal interpretation of how and when a person can infer malicious intent of another sentient creature.  As for the rope being urinated on - legally the dogs owner may not be responsible.  You put your gear on the ground and left it there.  If the dog is off leash in a state that allows it (on leash OR under voice control) then you could be SOL.  Annoying I know.  Any decent person would take care of the damages a dog would cause to you gear.  Legally they may not have to though.  Just be careful. 

Hi Will C--that was a mature and reasoned response!  

Maybe this is why another popster upthread said that team dog is winning if only because they seem less hysterical and unhinged than team anti-dog?

Will C - Maybe try reading what Bruno wrote.   While I don't agree with everything he said he brings up a few good points about Adams comments.