Fatal accident at Tahquitz today

Tradibanwrote:

Moving forward I will be cutting off any single tats I see and I encourage others to carry a knife and do the same.

An illogical act.

1.  The webbing may be nearly new.

2.  Proper bounce testing a piece of webbing will absolutely test it enough, putting a force on the anchor far more than will be generated by the rap. A sharp bounce will generate 3-4 kN.  3 kN is 674 lbs.   Proper means the heavier person bounces it, using a sling which has little stretch.  While still connected to a backup.

It’s like deja vu all over again

Todd Berlier wrote:

i did have a question for those who read the report and thought about it. does anyone else think its odd that Chelsea was weighting the anchor with Gavin. it seems odd from the picture that she would be.

Someone who has been there can probably answer more accurately.

Edit to add: Great post here by Leap Frog to a point in video showing the very slope-y terrain

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/message/123204692

To me and on similar terrain - or on any ledge with some slope to it, it looks like one where I’d be sitting down while waiting, at the extent of my tether or, if rock was pretty wet, standing up also at the extent of my tether. Either way, normally I’d have a little tension on my tether - unless I were concerned about the anchor while my first-to-rap partner was not. But, usually, I am the larger and so go first in situations like they were in.

If I were second to rap with concern about the anchor, I’d be going the extra step of effort to not weight the anchor.

doesn't it make some sense about the rockfall or rush of water or something else causing them to unexpectedly weight the rope together?

Some other trigger is possible. I’ve been in rushing water or under threat of rushing water. It is of course a complicating factor and, if nothing else, it can be distracting … not knowing if that was their eventual situation. Reportedly, a video Chelsea took a bit earlier showed them appearing as though in an unhurried state.

tom donnellywrote:

An illogical act.

1.  The webbing may be nearly new.

2.  Proper bounce testing a piece of webbing will absolutely test it enough, putting a force on the anchor far more than will be generated by the rap. A sharp bounce will generate 3-4 kN.  3 kN is 674 lbs.   Proper means the heavier person bounces it, using a sling which has little stretch.  While still connected to a backup.

Illogical would be rapping off single strand slings 

Nearly new / kind of new / not so old / getting old / very old / time bomb, these are not clearly delineated lines and it’s better just not to rely on single point rap anchors when we have other options (backing it up)

No bounce tests needed…

There has been lots of great advice on this thread, on both sides of the various issues. Reminds me of a dissimilar accident in the Tetons.

While we were on our way up to The Meadows in Garnet Canyon, a ranger coming down perfunctorily asked us if we had a permit to which we said we did. Without missing a beat, the ranger went into telling us of a serious accident involving a young man, off trail taking a “short cut”, slipped on snow, tumbled down snow and then talus for a couple hundred feet - survived but seriously injured.

Voice rising in anger and almost yelling, the ranger ordered, “Stay off the f___ing snow!”

End of discussion - but premature I think.

“…and it’s better just not to rely on single point rap anchors when we have other options (backing it up)

No bounce tests needed…”

+100

tom donnellywrote:

An illogical act.

1.  The webbing may be nearly new.

2.  Proper bounce testing a piece of webbing will absolutely test it enough, putting a force on the anchor far more than will be generated by the rap. A sharp bounce will generate 3-4 kN.  3 kN is 674 lbs.   Proper means the heavier person bounces it, using a sling which has little stretch.  While still connected to a backup.

1. Key word “tat”. Short for “tattered”, also “old” and “weathered”. Cut it off.

2. Bounce testing has been debunked in this thread. Don’t do it.

Y’all just need to accept the reality of what happened and quit djinning conspiracy theories.

In Extreme Alpinism, Mark Twight points out that if there is any chance of descending without ropes, it makes sense for the second rappeller to not be attached to the rap anchor. Of course, a removable backup could be used too.

I'm not sure if I'm picturing the rope damage correctly, but would it be consistent with a situation where the climber was standing on the ledge, with anchor at their feet, then slipped and took a factor 2 on the anchor? Or perhaps both climbers dynamically loaded the anchor at once? Wet granite is slippery.

The massive assumption here is that he didn’t bounce test the sling in some way before committing both himself and partner to fully lean back on it - which IMO seems unlikely - nobody with a modicum of experience blindly leans back on an anchor like that - could have been just a visual, more likely some level of bouncing.

Anchor slings that look like they'd need a "bounce testing" is like Russian roulette...would you take a chance at that for $5, $10, or $100?!

relaying that a friend had seen that single tat sling 2 wks prior is much more meaningful.  that def makes the single tat rap anchor the likely scenario

there are still things that don't seem to add up. after Dave's Deviation P1 and P2, most usu do Piton Pooper P1 to the base of Upper RA, to set belay at the rap tree with tat sling if so chooses.  a leader wouldn't just clip into that single sling to bring up follower (if indeed that then there's more wrong here than just rapping via single sling).  catching a potential TR slip and fall during rain on wet rock, with belayer above in semi-hanging stance, to have all that weighed onto a single sling?  that thought would make anyone queasy and immediately correct.  if there was a better gear anchor, even if one that incorporates the tat sling, were the back-up components really cleaned sooner than necessary to commit two lives back onto a single sling?  per usual procedure, even if decided to go for the unthinkable single sling rap, the 2nd person doesn't need to unclip from or clean that anchor's other components til 1st rappeller has rapped down and built another gear anchor and clipped in

Seanwrote:

relaying that a friend had seen that single tat sling 2 wks prior is much more meaningful.  that def makes the single tat rap anchor the likely scenario

there are still things that don't seem to add up. after Dave's Deviation P1 and P2, most usu do Piton Pooper P1 to the base of Upper RA, to set belay at the rap tree with tat sling if so chooses.  a leader wouldn't just clip into that single sling to bring up follower (if indeed that then there's more wrong here than just rapping via single sling).  catching a potential TR slip and fall during rain on wet rock, with belayer above in semi-hanging stance, to have all that weighed onto a single sling?  that thought would make anyone queasy and immediately correct.  if there was a better gear anchor, even if one that incorporates the tat sling, were the back-up components really cleaned sooner than necessary to commit two lives back onto a single sling?  per usual procedure, even if decided to go for the unthinkable single sling rap, the 2nd person doesn't need to unclip from or clean that anchor's other components til 1st rappeller has rapped down and built another gear anchor and clipped in

Did you read the report? It’s all there, there’s even helmet cam footage. They made a mistake, it happens to the best of us. Let it go.

i did read the report, hence all the other info noted, but missed the one mention about video showing one sling. single fixed sling scenario was never eliminated by me anyway. with the other possibility gone, what remains now aligns

relying on one fixed sling to anchor the whole time in addition to finally to rap off of just that, that's a big deal.  but as said, once operating in adverse storm conditions, stuff that shouldn't happen could

the entire first 6 pages of this prior to the report link, all the ramblings about no evidence, simul-rap, etc, all of that really did amount to nothing, with unnecessary negative impact on victim families and friends.  same as just wait for the report and then discuss

Seanwrote:

relaying that a friend had seen that single tat sling 2 wks prior is much more meaningful.  that def makes the single tat rap anchor the likely scenario

Posted in another thread - @2:50 - in a 2 yr old video - the sling was sun-bleached white then as well.

https://youtu.be/k6iqWeN3Q9s

James Wwrote:

Posted in another thread - @2:50 - in a 2 yr old video - the sling was sun-bleached white then as well.

https://youtu.be/k6iqWeN3Q9s

that tipped out .75 placement to kick that video off is superb.

Tradibanwrote:

Did you read the report? It’s all there, there’s even helmet cam footage. They made a mistake, it happens to the best of us. Let it go.

I didn't see any videos or links in the accident report. Can anyone link it, if it's public?

Seanwrote:

relying on one fixed sling to anchor the whole time in addition to finally to rap off of just that, that's a big deal.  but as said, once operating in adverse storm conditions, stuff that shouldn't happen could

Can you clarify, is there evidence (from the video perhaps) that they belayed off the tat before rapping? Or are you referring to just having the whole team clipped to the tat during the rappel transition?

J Cwrote:

I didn't see any videos or links in the accident report. Can anyone link it, if it's public?

RMRU report: Video taken by Chelsea at the tree before Gavin began rappelling shows both climbers clipped into the single loop of webbing which was not backed up. 

J Cwrote:

I didn't see any videos or links in the accident report. Can anyone link it, if it's public?

It was described in the report. No links.

Due to the pervasiveness of Bounce testing myths, I started a separate thread.   Argue with me there if you feel strongly that it’s a good practice.

As for this thread, I’ll assume unless we have fuller video evidence confirming the contrary, that they did test this anchor to some degree before both committing full scale to it.    It would seem to me “improbable” at best for them to have had more blind faith in unknown tat than their own biners, and thus backed up the biners!    

Also just an aside to Bill Lawry:  my testing is using a Reverso 4 (similar to that shown in report —which may or may not be the same as the one they used — not sure from report) with a 9.4 mm rope. (Unsure of exact rope details) with 150lb test weight