Fatal accident at Tahquitz today

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

That's a  totally  shit looking  thread . why would i listen to anything  about safety from someone who would rap from that shit show.  

Nick, lighten up.  And think about what you just posted.   Of course it’s a shit looking thread.  As stated, it was specifically chosen from “the edges” of the envelope”.   I’m out there doing R&D, testing the edges of the envelope just to keep you safe.  Lol.  Take it or leave it, I know what I’m talking about.  
(I was doing drops and tests when the how2 guys were babbling in kindergarten)

isn't Minnesota ice all single pitch anyways?  

Mostly, but Some of world’s best most concentrated multipitch just over the border.  And then sometimes we put up the dogsled and jump into these things called trucks and head west  

and that argument is total BS.  if they had a bomber back up and bounced that tat they would still be here. 

Not BS, although you’re right of course, but a silly statement. You are missing the point you yourself just made.  If they had a “bomber” back up, no bounce test was needed…and they’d still be here  

If you’re suggesting that they then could have REMOVED the backup, then you’re not just being silly but stupidly dangerous.  They may very well have done that very same thing.  

People are erroneously assuming for no reason that they didn’t test the webbing.  They were experienced and careful by all accounts.   They had 2 opposed biners.  Odds are better than not, that they followed the same misguided thinking presented by you and others here that somehow a “test”  of that webbing was meaningful 

I am one of the few people on this thread giving them at least avg common climber credit.   I have been saying there is a very good probability that a “non common” event such as sudden rockfall led to the shock load that failed the anchor —as most likely the rope was attached to the anchor when the rope sheath was damaged.  You yourself Nick described the ledge you were on falling away once.

My other goal is to try to help others avoid similar fates, by changing perspectives, but it seems many want to feel high and mighty, diminish the victims, and yet think they’re so much smarter.  To each their own.  My work is done here

I've been reading this thread as well as some other similar threads about anchor failures ( wolfs head) and just wonder why not just back up something with either additional  webbing around a solid natural  anchor or place gear.in a crack if possible. 

The accident report mentions  both climbers had gear on their harnesses. It also mentions  the climbers did not appear  to  be in a hurry,  meaning they trusted the tat in place after inspection and perhaps even after bounce.

Maybe I or you  would have too... 

Gear costs money but life is priceless.

We all take risks out there. If you're outside and climbing trad you may have to bail at some point.

Isnt it reasonable  to climb with  nuts and cord to bail on or to back up something if need be? 

That's what my partner and I have learned from this and the wolfs head thread because  we can't be sure by bounce or color when tat  that's been left will fail. ( I used to think I could be sure mind you but these threads have taught me I can't )

My sincere  condolences  to the deceased families  and  friends. 

well, turned out what likely happened involved mostly stuff we already knew. the one new or new-to-most aspect pertains to how crinkly old tat could misleadingly appear to be in better condition when wet, which NONE of the speculators in this sorry thread had managed to id.  therefore, the entire pre-RMRU-report blabber fest ultimately amounted to NOTHING, with only unnecessary negative impact on victim families and friends having to fret about the myriad of wrong things some blabberers outright pulled out of their posteriors and just had to throw out like supposed gospel

is it really that hard to just wait a few days or even wks for the official report to come out, esp when known to be one forthcoming like in this case?  once based on known facts and findings, sure, speculating forward could turn up useful bits, all anyone could do at that point. but jumping the gun? never mind ending up foolish. claims of speculating for the faster immediate benefit of others aren't really what they crack up to be, esp when they constantly inevitably turn into an ensuing mess of bickering nonsense. let's get real: some just can't help needing to sound like a know-it-all, even when it's just brain farts that popped into their heads and, having zero self control their entire lives, they just had to spew, even if less experienced people might mistakenly learn that garbage and later on contribute to a mishap of their own.  there's something truly psychotic and sociopathic about that sort of depraved antics

am very impressed by RMRU's attention to evidence, upon arrival at scene and later again, contrary to some MP loudmouths' farcical and ultimately useless claims. whining ahead of time about how nothing might be known really doesn't help and only makes everything worse for victim families and friends who already have way too much to deal with

Mark, 

We disagree about whether the below “E”, from my prior explanation of the sheath damage, is reasonable.

Bill Lawry wrote:

E) Given the likely involved velocity / resulting forces, there is no way for the rope (whether one or two strands) to feed fast enough through the ATC before the sheath parts.

In short, It is reasonable due to the mass of the stuff on the biner’d side of the ATC - something over a pound - plus the probable dynamics involved.

Assuming a snagged rope tail with tangle on the ~2000 lb rock - E is totally reasonable with the circumstances and evidence we currently have - I’ll break down the dynamics ..

Chances are that biner-end mass was hanging off the ATC towards the center of the earth at the time the other side of the rope starts to resist everything continuing down. Consider the initial breaking of the old sling when that portion of the rope is stretched under Gavin’s weight and the released rope recoils downward faster than Gavin accelerates.  And if that does not reposition the biner end, it will whip in that direction with any deceleration of Gavin.  Either way, this tends to put biner side of the rope near the (new) max braking position at the time the snagged rope really starts to resist the fall which further increases braking albeit nearly insignificant in that instant.

Also, at the point when the rope between Gavin and the snag tightens, the immediate demand on rope movement through the ATC is on the order of 50 mph (making some reasonable assumptions here). Upward acceleration of the rope from 50 mph (downward) towards 0 mph amplifies the effective braking. And any whipping of the biner end amplifies braking.

This leads to this statement being too extreme and misleading:

Mark Pilate wrote:The tossed down, majority of the rappel rope below Gavin and the device never came into play, and never snagged anything. Of all the possibilities and uncertainties, this is the most firm.

Also, about this …

You can verify it at home.   The rap clip in biners and bight would be sucked up tight to the device.  

I have an experiment in mind involving our old cottonwood. But we have three of our grandkids over for this weekend. My wife is resisting the idea of a heavy falling objects while they are around. And the next several weekends I’m climbing in RR / JTree. So am dry-lab-ing  this today.

Edit - A question for RMRU:  Was the strand with the most damage the one with the “hand-tight” knot?

In case it hasn’t been said explicitly:

do NOT trust single strand tat anchors REGARDLESS of bounce testing 

Rappell off REDUNDANT anchors which may mean leaving your personal gear to back it up.

Please everyone, let’s keep in mind we want to prevent these accidents. Just back them up ok?

If you are that cheap and don’t want to use a cordalette you brought I’ll Venmo you. 

Seanwrote:

well, turned out what likely happened involved mostly stuff we already knew. the one new or new-to-most aspect pertains to how crinkly old tat could misleadingly appear to be in better condition when wet, which NONE of the speculators in this sorry thread had managed to id.  therefore, the entire pre-RMRU-report blabber fest ultimately amounted to NOTHING, with only unnecessary negative impact on victim families and friends having to fret about the myriad of wrong things some blabberers outright pulled out of their posteriors and just had to throw out like supposed gospel

is it really that hard to just wait a few days or even wks for the official report to come out, esp when known to be one forthcoming like in this case?  once based on known facts and findings, sure, speculating forward could turn up useful bits, all anyone could do at that point. but jumping the gun? never mind ending up foolish. claims of speculating for the faster immediate benefit of others aren't really what they crack up to be, esp when they constantly inevitably turn into an ensuing mess of bickering nonsense. let's get real: some just can't help needing to sound like a know-it-all, even when it's just brain farts that popped into their heads and, having zero self control their entire lives, they just had to spew, even if less experienced people might mistakenly learn that garbage and later on contribute to a mishap of their own.  there's something truly psychotic and sociopathic about that sort of depraved antics

am very impressed by RMRU's attention to evidence, upon arrival at scene and later again, contrary to some MP loudmouths' farcical and ultimately useless claims. whining ahead of time about how nothing might be known really doesn't help and only makes everything worse for victim families and friends who already have way too much to deal with

The wet webbing concept is valid but a red herring. Wetness may make a sun dried webbing look better than it is but it certainly doesn’t make it look new.

More importantly a visual inspection (or a bounce test) is not an adequate assessment of any webbing’s validity. Back it up and keep it backed up regardless of what it looks like.

Bill Lawrywrote:

Lol, my own “drop tower” is also a large cottonwood.  

I think your E is plausible, just not most probable fitting to the data available so far.  

I made my “extreme” statement of most probable after my own drop tests and recreations.  Look forward to your findings.  That’s what’s great about science.   Two guys at two different cottonwoods should come to same repeatable results, lol.  

Regardless, we (who only have the report) Definitely would need more details, (on the rope, belay device, etc.) to confirm/adjust the probabilities.  RMRU did an excellent job.  Not sure locking down the finer details and investigation are worth the effort, as they do not change the larger meaningful picture or outcomes.  

Tradibanwrote:

The wet webbing concept is valid but a red herring. Wetness may make a sun dried webbing look better than it is but it certainly doesn’t make it look new.

More importantly a visual inspection is not an adequate assessment of any webbing’s validity. Back it up and keep it backed up regardless of what it looks like.

wet tat appearing in better condition is a valid factor and relevant.  key is that wetness made it good enough to use.  backing it up is good practice that all should adhere to.  reading about both climbers' experience levels, hard to imagine they wouldn't think to back up a single sling.  RMRU found one remaining broken tat sling around the rap tree.  that doesn't mean there wasn't a second one that fell away after breaking, now lost in the trees and slopes below.  whether two fixed slings that looked good enough qualify as "backed up" would then be open to debate, bec many routinely use multiple fixed slings without adding a temp or sacrificial one of their own.  also, bailing in a storm, that's def operating out of normal routines. even tho recovered vid showed them to be in good spirits and unhurried, once there in bail mode in challenging conditions, who knows, things that shouldn't happen could happen

Seanwrote:

wet tat appearing in better condition is a valid factor and relevant.  key is that wetness made it good enough to use,  backing it up is good practice that all should adhere to.  reading about both climbers' experience levels, hard to imagine they wouldn't think to back up a single sling.  RMRU found one remaining broken tat sling around the rap tree.  that doesn't mean there wasn't a second one that fell away after breaking, now lost in the trees and slopes below.  whether two fixed slings that looked good enough qualify as "backed up" would then be open to debate, bec many routinely use multiple fixed slings without adding a temp or sacrificial one of their own.  also, bailing in a storm, that's def operating out of normal routines. even tho recovered vid showed them to be in good spirits and unhurried, once there in bail mode in challenging conditions, who knows, things that shouldn't happen could happen

There was only one sling on that tree, I remember it. I should have cut it off but I figured if someone would use it they would at least back it up and it was so close to the summit I didn’t think it would get used for a rap anyway.

Moving forward I will be cutting off any single tats I see and I encourage others to carry a knife and do the same.

This is the tree.

Mark Pilatewrote:

Regardless, we (who only have the report) Definitely would need more details, (on the rope, belay device, etc.) to confirm/adjust the probabilities.  RMRU did an excellent job.  

I agree.  RMRU provided a significant amount of factual details. More on probabilities below.

Not sure locking down the finer details and investigation are worth the effort, as they do not change the larger meaningful picture or outcomes.  

Agree with this as well.  It really makes it pretty hard to rule out any plausible explanation for the sheath damage, which I have not.

Limited as I am to low-risk testing, I did get an ATC to catch on about 5 feet of vertically hanging rope strands (i.e., 5’ hanging below the ATC). See picture.

ATC will slide down under steady downward pull via the biner, a steady pull far less than body weight. Still, it “violently” catches when biner is jerked downward by hand without a brake hand on the rope.

Granted, this has the rope running over the small end of a small biner adding a good amount of static friction and constriction. Of course  can’t say today whether higher impact loads would damage the sheath.

I believe anyone with a like biner (BD Positron Screw Gate) and plain ATC could set this up and get the same result.  Rope is probably 10.0 mm diameter. Pre-setting the rope’s bight around the biner helps with repeatability. It frequently catches with no brake hand.

Yes, having a matching rope, biner and device - ATC vs ATC Guide vs ATC Alpine Guide - would actually make for meaningful tests. So, Mark, assigning a probability is premature. 

I really appreciate S&R detailed report.
Confirms my speculation’s.
One must never trust old tat, especially if only one strand without a rap ring. It was left by another party- escaping - just like you are doing. No ring means the rope has been pulled before causing a rope burn.

I only wish for all climbers to think about the consequences they face if something goes wrong. Ditch a sling or two, leave some gear if you must- the cost means nothing, it’s the price you must pay for a safe day out.  Very cheap especially considering what you are risking.

Again I offer my sincere condolences to the fallen climbers, their Families and Friends.

RIP 

i stick w what the report says and also note what it doesn't say.  they can only state what they found remaining.  that means the tat anchor could be that one tat sling, or not.  don't mind if i disregard the questionable memory of some internet addict who had shown great tendency to bs left and right and would say anything to drag it all out

also, even the report said "very difficult" to see the orig color in the tat knot. people can inspect thoroughly when at ease in good conditions, or when speculating about this sitting in the comfort of their homes.  in bail mode during storm?  people do the best they can at that point

if some want to insist they were that careless or that flawed in their fundamentals as to rap via a single fixed tat sling, those some can do that

given that another tat could've easily fallen away after breaking, given that such a combo is routinely considered by many as backed up, i'm ok with being not sure about that part, whether additional broken tat or the very big error of trusting lives to a single sling of whatev condition.  am ok to have both as takeaway

It sounds like someone recently saw there was only one sling. I don't think we need to gum up this issue with hypotheticals, unfortunately it's pretty clear what happened. Maybe there was signs (stiff sling vs wet, white sling vs faded) but regardless it was a system that was not redundant - and the horse continues to be beat.

I'll stick to Occam's razor, and give the best advice anyone can give after this event - back up fixed rappels that are not part of redundant systems.

edit - you may have personal feelings towards a member of MP, and there are many people in this thread that I often disagree with - it doesn't mean their malicious or purposefully trolling this thread to have bad information. Another friend of mine climbed the route 2 weeks ago and confirmed the lone sling was there. It can be difficult to analyze these actions when emotions run strong but it's important to be objective and reasonable despite differences you may have.

“Video taken by Chelsea at the tree before Gavin began rappelling shows both climbers clipped into the single loop of webbing which was not backed up.”

From the official report. Seems pretty conclusive.

Backstepwrote:

“Video taken by Chelsea at the tree before Gavin began rappelling shows both climbers clipped into the single loop of webbing which was not backed up.”

From the official report. Seems pretty conclusive.

That would take people actually reading the report..... Which for the average MP user, is probably not a high percentage.

Time to move on. Another thread was started regarding webbing. Go toss your opinions there. Everything has been clearly explained as to how this tragedy happened and the conclusion is unfortunately simple.  As others have said, family and friends of both victims are active climbers and part of the community, so think about that.  There is nothing more any of you can add to this here, that hasn’t already been said.  

Tradibanwrote:

There was only one sling on that tree, I remember it. I should have cut it off but I figured if someone would use it they would at least back it up and it was so close to the summit I didn’t think it would get used for a rap anyway.

Moving forward I will be cutting off any single tats I see and I encourage others to carry a knife and do the same.

This is the tree.

What makes me sad is that this tree, or at least one of its horizontal branches within easy reach of the ground, could easily have taken a girth hitched alpine sling as backup for that tat with no need for fancy rigging at all. And something that simple could have saved a couple lives. 

This talk of bounce testing is ridiculous!  Simply cut off any old old tat and replace it with your own. The high exposure to UV in this sunny alpine area renders tat unsafe in a single season.  Sadly my assessment of this accident still relates to weather. The team was in a hurry as they were pelted with hail and visibility would have been severely restricted. The takeaway lesson should be; leave your own slings and gear when retreating. 

Seanwrote:

i stick w what the report says and also note what it doesn't say.  they can only state what they found remaining.  that means the tat anchor could be that one tat sling, or not.  don't mind if i disregard the questionable memory of some internet addict who had shown great tendency to bs left and right and would say anything to drag it all out

also, even the report said "very difficult" to see the orig color in the tat knot. people can inspect thoroughly when at ease in good conditions, or when speculating about this sitting in the comfort of their homes.  in bail mode during storm?  people do the best they can at that point

if some want to insist they were that careless or that flawed in their fundamentals as to rap via a single fixed tat sling, those some can do that

given that another tat could've easily fallen away after breaking, given that such a combo is routinely considered by many as backed up, i'm ok with being not sure about that part, whether additional broken tat or the very big error of trusting lives to a single sling of whatev condition.  am ok to have both as takeaway

I’m not really understanding your point with all of this.

Main takeaway from the thread:

DONT TRUST A SINGLE PIECE OF WEBBING!

Yes a broken piece of nothing. And two of our own have passed back into the long night. 

They leave us this opportunity to help eachother in our grief. Climbers well travelled, more nimble can pause to point out hazzards new friends might miss.

The stricken families may take some small solace to know how much we hurt, how hard we try to pull together.