Your own GriGri belays skills? Evolved or stagnated?

When GriGris first appeared, graphical or illustrative aids on how to actually use it were sparse or maybe non-existent.
I don't remember Petzl stating there was an actual method at all for getting slack out fast. Many, who don't like the GriGri, say it's because they can't get slack out fast.
I certainly don't remember many early users intuitively pointing their index finger towards themselves, hanging the device on that finger, then thumbing the cam while holding the brake strand with their remaining three fingers. Things were more ad hoc. 

Things have changed - now Petzl provides instructions, which are impressively clear.
What was your personal progression with the GriGri? Did you start the right way or the wrong way? Did you self correct? Have you maybe found an even better way you'd care to share? 

I found using a GriGri to be a no brainer

Now a hip belay tied into a bowline on a coil with a goldline - that requires some skill

There has been a stated method since the grigri 2 came out, nothing this polished but the information has been there. 

Yeah Petzl have been talking about the "correct" method for like 15 years.  I believe it was developed by climbers because I learned it even before Petzl had any instructions.  Given that most climbers started climbing since then, most people should have learned the correct method right away.  On the other hand, a lot of newer climbers apparently haven't learned that you're not supposed to keep your thumb on the cam at all times.

Yeah I re-learned how to use a grigri using the current method when I bought a grigri 2. I'm also left-handed, so I learned how to belay right-handed as well.

The inflexibility some older climbers display to learning new belay methods is pretty shocking to me (cough cough, Kalous dragging up ancient Petzl manuals to whinge on the Enormocast facebook page).

I have to retrain on harder stuff in the day job all the time, if I was clinging on to the first skills I learned I'd be unemployable.

JaredGwrote:

Yeah Petzl have been talking about the "correct" method for like 15 years.  I believe it was developed by climbers because I learned it even before Petzl had any instructions.  Given that most climbers started climbing since then, most people should have learned the correct method right away.  On the other hand, a lot of newer climbers apparently haven't learned that you're not supposed to keep your thumb on the cam at all times.

I hate seeing people with the thumb always on, makes me nervous they don't actually know what they're doing and i might witness an accident.

I think its a good example of the understanding versus being told how to do it. Easy enough to put your thumb there when needed, but if you don't understand why it's not ideal to always thumb the cam, you don't realize that you're introducing another step you need to take to catch a fall.

Why do people pretend this is so hard? 

I’m a bit of a special case, I guess. I started with the original gri-gri. But I’m a leftie. I was belaying with an ATC for a number of years, before I switched to a grigri, using my left hand as a brake hand, and struggled to find a smooth way to belay as a newbie gri-gri belayer with minimal initial instruction. I was taught to belay on a gri-gri left-handed by another leftie, who saw me struggle. And that is how I belay to this day.

I have learned to belay right-handed on a gri-gri using the “new” Petzl method (that is by now older than the climbing background of most current climbers). I can do it proficiently, and I have taught this “new” technique to many right-handed newbies. 

But left-handed version is more comfortable for me. I’ve had a shoulder surgery on my left, and it is more comfortable on long belay sessions to keep the left hand low, and feed the rope out with the right, instead of doing the repetitive upward motion with the left, so I do it that way

Also, While this is not in any way a demonstration of proficiency, I should add that when I test out for a lead belay in a new gym, I ask if they are ok with me doing it this way, or if they want me to demonstrate the right-handed version. In all but one case, so far, out of dozens gyms, I was told to belay the way I was more comfortable, and nobody ever failed me for that technique.  

Also, FWIW, I think I had been belaying with a gri-gri for over 10 years before I ever had to do a lead-belay test in a gym, using a gri-gri. 

Joey Touchstonewrote:

I hate seeing people with the thumb always on, makes me nervous they don't actually know what they're doing and i might witness an accident.

I think its a good example of the understanding versus being told how to do it. Easy enough to put your thumb there when needed, but if you don't understand why it's not ideal to always thumb the cam, you don't realize that you're introducing another step you need to take to catch a fall.

The good news is you won't see an accident this way.  You can't drop someone when properly clutching the grigri (thumb on cam, forefinger on side rail, brake hand still on).  I agree having the thumb on at all times is less than ideal for several reasons, and is often an indication of inexperience, but it's not a critical error that will result in dropping a climber.

I learned on hips, then the Stitcht plate, then the ATC… was skeptical of the Grigri at first but am now a huge fan and it’s what I always use sport climbing and on the occasional multipitch. I learned the approved Petzl method from day 1… and I do confess to resting my thumb on the cam but I don’t actually press it unless I need to give rope. When standing on the ground, the “step forward a bit” method as leader clips seems to help give rope quickly as well. I never let go of the brake hand side of the rope.

I like to think my belay skills are constantly improving… gauging when to give soft catch versus hard catch, judging where the leader would end up and/or what they might hit (if they fall) during all points on a pitch, trying not to ever short rope but also not have excessive slack out, etc. Belaying a leader is actually more complicated than maybe some people realize.

My pet peeve: folks who squeeze the entire Grigri with one hand while giving rope with the other—and no hand at all on the brake strand. I see that a lot. I’m surprised there aren’t more accidents because of this… perhaps a testament to how well the device can work even if misused.

Second pet peeve: huge amounts of slack in the system through the first two, sometimes even three, bolts… to the point where the leader would likely hit the ground in a fall. In a fall, it’s often quite surprising how much slack is actually in the system and how far the rope will stretch. 

Seriously Moderate Climber wrote:

The good news is you won't see an accident this way.  You can't drop someone when properly clutching the grigri (thumb on cam, forefinger on side rail, brake hand still on).  I agree having the thumb on at all times is less than ideal for several reasons, and is often an indication of inexperience, but it's not a critical error that will result in dropping a climber.

You don't know my thumb strength.  I train pinches to drop people on belay. 

Seriously Moderate Climberwrote:

The good news is you won't see an accident this way.  You can't drop someone when properly clutching the grigri (thumb on cam, forefinger on side rail, brake hand still on).  I agree having the thumb on at all times is less than ideal for several reasons, and is often an indication of inexperience, but it's not a critical error that will result in dropping a climber.

That is good news, and this video here shows what happens if you don't hold it correctly: And apparently another way to not feed slack even if holding it correctly: And another possibility if you don't keep a brake hand on:

I have to ask though, why is it less than ideal to keep your thumb on if you're otherwise holding it properly, and it won't result in a dropped climber? Honest question, since I rarely use one. 

Brandon R wrote:

Edit reply: I was mostly joking but for you to be able to hold it down through someone decking would require some serious negligence as it feels like your riding a bull machine.  Its hard to do especially if you've ever caught someone on belay with any other device and have any muscle memory.  Cheers lets meet at the next grig discussion.

Jordan Wilsonwrote:

I tried to resist you Brandon, but honest reply its less then ideal on the chance that you panic when someone falls you grip the grig in an insane strangle lock pushing the thumb press down and keep the cam from catching.  Like the video me and some other dummies tried its hard, it'll pop your thumb off most the time unless you grab the grig and completely ignore the brake strand even then its gonna win eventually, or as I stated earlier you got some massive thumb. 

I don't mind an honest reply at all. Makes sense. I thought you were joking in your pinch strength reply, but I guess there's some truth to it. 

Brandon Rwrote:

That is good news, and this video here shows what happens if you don't hold it correctly: And apparently another way to not feed slack even if holding it correctly: And another possibility if you don't keep a brake hand on: 

I have to ask though, why is it less than ideal to keep your thumb on if you're otherwise holding it properly, and it won't result in a dropped climber? Honest question, since I rarely use one. 

I personally think its less than ideal because its decreasing how much control you have over the amount of slack in the event of a fall.

If you get used to the device, you just dont need to thumb the cam all the time. I maybe thumb it 1 out of every 30 times my climber clips, and thats just when they really yank a ton of rope fast.

Thumbing the cam wouldn't necessarily result in a dropped climber, and it's probably going to be fine the vast majority of the time. I simply prefer to have as much control as possible of the amount of slack to prevent ledge falls, hard catches, rope drag that might pull on a piece of gear, etc etc.

As with most conversations on this forum, its a lot of minutia and a difference of attitude/risk tolerance and some people do or don't care.

Joey Touchstonewrote:

I personally think its less than ideal because its decreasing how much control you have over the amount of slack in the event of a fall.

If you get used to the device, you just dont need to thumb the cam all the time. I maybe thumb it 1 out of every 30 times my climber clips, and thats just when they really yank a ton of rope fast.

Thumbing the cam wouldn't necessarily result in a dropped climber, and it's probably going to be fine the vast majority of the time. I simply prefer to have as much control as possible of the amount of slack to prevent ledge falls, hard catches, rope drag that might pull on a piece of gear, etc etc.

As with most conversations on this forum, its a lot of minutia and a difference of attitude/risk tolerance and some people do or don't care.

I'm sure your partners do too! Thanks for the explanation. 

Lena chitawrote:

I’m a bit of a special case, I guess. I started with the original gri-gri. But I’m a leftie. I was belaying with an ATC for a number of years, before I switched to a grigri, using my left hand as a brake hand, and struggled to find a smooth way to belay as a newbie gri-gri belayer with minimal initial instruction. I was taught to belay on a gri-gri left-handed by another leftie, who saw me struggle. And that is how I belay to this day.

I have learned to belay right-handed on a gri-gri using the “new” Petzl method (that is by now older than the climbing background of most current climbers). I can do it proficiently, and I have taught this “new” technique to many right-handed newbies. 

But left-handed version is more comfortable for me. I’ve had a shoulder surgery on my left, and it is more comfortable on long belay sessions to keep the left hand low, and feed the rope out with the right, instead of doing the repetitive upward motion with the left, so I do it that way

Also, While this is not in any way a demonstration of proficiency, I should add that when I test out for a lead belay in a new gym, I ask if they are ok with me doing it this way, or if they want me to demonstrate the right-handed version. In all but one case, so far, out of dozens gyms, I was told to belay the way I was more comfortable, and nobody ever failed me for that technique.  

Also, FWIW, I think I had been belaying with a gri-gri for over 10 years before I ever had to do a lead-belay test in a gym, using a gri-gri. 

i think i probably belay the same way (the "butt" of my left hand basically holds the grigri in a low position to help it feed, and my left hand is always fully closed around the rope).  it freaks some people out though. my left arm has a really hard time pulling out slack due to shoulder issues, and i have always braked left handed.  i think even if i could belay right handed, the left handed way is a lot better.

i used to belay left handed, but with the grigri "upside down", similar to how it is oriented when you are rope soloing with it.  that worked well also, but was more prone to kinking the rope, which is one of the things i don't really like about the "new" grigri belay method.

Lefty gang represent. I grigri right handed but use whichever side is convenient for tubes.

slimwrote:

i think i probably belay the same way (the "butt" of my left hand basically holds the grigri in a low position to help it feed, and my left hand is always fully closed around the rope).  it freaks some people out though. my left arm has a really hard time pulling out slack due to shoulder issues, and i have always braked left handed.  i think even if i could belay right handed, the left handed way is a lot better.

i used to belay left handed, but with the grigri "upside down", similar to how it is oriented when you are rope soloing with it.  that worked well also, but was more prone to kinking the rope, which is one of the things i don't really like about the "new" grigri belay method.

Yes, left palm butt holding grigri low, left hand never leaves the rope.

Depending on the rope diameter, I also sometimes do something similar to old palms-up ATC belay, feeding the rope without ever touching the grigri, and keeping the left low.

I’ve tried the upside-down gri-gri briefly, and didn’t like the kinking.

The right-handed version is fine for me. It’s not like my right hand is unable to brake, or my left shoulder is painful. But I need to consciously think about it and decide to do the right-handed version. The left-handed version is automatic. Similar to the knot tying: sure, I can do half a dozen bowline versions, but I need to think and consciously decide that I would tie in with a bowline this one time.  Figure 8 happens automatically.

When I’m jugging the fixed ropes a lot I usually alternate using the left hand on the ascender/right hand on the gri-gri for a period of time, and then switch to right hand on ascender/left hand on the grigri brake.  

Definitely left hand braking in ATC mode for me (though I am right handed) 95 percent of the time. Helps to have the GriGri 1 which IMO remains the best for single pitch sport climbing. Petzl needs to go back to the drawing board and redesign the device to emphasize safe reliable feeding of slack and not rely on the thumb/semi-brake-hand-on thing anymore as the standard. I want a device that allows real brake hand use and the ability for the belayer readily to feed 2-3 feet of slack without it catching as well as locking in the event of an actual fall. The Revo is probably not it yet but something like it is the next level.

Peter Bealwrote:

Definitely left hand braking in ATC mode for me (though I am right handed) 95 percent of the time. Helps to have the GriGri 1 which IMO remains the best for single pitch sport climbing. Petzl needs to go back to the drawing board and redesign the device to emphasize safe reliable feeding of slack and not rely on the thumb/semi-brake-hand-on thing anymore as the standard. I want a device that allows real brake hand use and the ability for the belayer readily to feed 2-3 feet of slack without it catching as well as locking in the event of an actual fall. The Revo is probably not it yet but something like it is the next level.

I’m crossing my fingers for a “Revo Pro” with an adjustable spring for the clutch (keep the current 4.5m/s catch as the maximum, but adjustable for more aggressive engagement) and a manually engagable cam for lowering/rappelling (ie a lever like a grigri, but instead of releasing the cam it engages it, with the clutch being the backup and a detent so it could be locked).