Planning Zodiac in October but have never hammered any route

Mark Hudonwrote:

As far as Beaks go, it wouldn't bother me a bit to tap a few here and there. I took an upside down 50 footer off the Back Tower pitch trying to speed climb it clean.

 

My partner witnessed this same fall from the team behind us.. we did it clean with a hand placed beak or 2.. after the fall they nailed the rest of the route 

How many offset cams did you guys bring? I’m wondering how many I need to go out and buy haha, I only have totems 

Doubles from the smallest Metolius to a yellow totem. 

John Shultzwrote:

Hey dudes,

I am a big wall chump, for sure. And many of you cats have tremendous experience. 

But are a couple of love taps on a beak that big a deal these days? I thought the whole hammer-less thing had become more passe in a beak world 

I'm even more of a chump, but one hammerless solution I've been experimenting with lately is the "iron fist", putting a camhook underneath your glove so that it curves around your hand with the lip of the camhook on the pinkie side of your fist. This allows you to pound on a beak just a little harder with the side of your hand than you could otherwise. Works great on straight-in seams but not corners. On corners, I've been experimenting with a modified carpenter's square to use as a striking surface, so you put the square against the beak and them pound on the fat side of the square with the side of your glove (with the camhook underneath the glove). If you didn't want to carry the square, you could just use a nut-tool as a striking surface to get into corners

Jack Powerswrote:

I'm even more of a chump, but one hammerless solution I've been experimenting with lately is the "iron fist", putting a camhook underneath your glove so that it curves around your hand with the lip of the camhook on the pinkie side of your fist. This allows you to pound on a beak just a little harder with the side of your hand than you could otherwise. Works great on straight-in seams but not corners. On corners, I've been experimenting with a modified carpenter's square to use as a striking surface, so you put the square against the beak and them pound on the fat side of the square with the side of your glove (with the camhook underneath the glove). If you didn't want to carry the square, you could just use a nut-tool as a striking surface to get into corners

“By not wanting to use a hammer, I have created a newer, but worse hammer”

Ross Goldbergwrote:

“By not wanting to use a hammer, I have created a newer, but worse hammer”

Different tools for different situations and goals. If you want to climb at a place that doesn't allow hammered placements, or you want to not create hammer-strike marks on the rock, or you want to use a technique that guarantees you'll never over-drive a beak (even if lightly hammered beaks are clean, you can for sure damage the rock with aggressive hammering), or you think that going hammerless makes additional demands on your creativity and is still a cool thing to do, then try this out. If not, keep hammering. But also maybe try to engage your imagination a little when you see something that doesn't make sense to you

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Oh it makes sense to us why one would be creative and consider it, it just doesn't make sense why one would convince yourself that it's somehow better than just brining a hammer and using it in the same way. 

If the place doesn't allow hammered placements then don't hammer or stroke or fist hammer strike your placements. If it don't go then you bail. Them's the rules 

If you don't want hammer strikes on the rock then use another tool in conjunction with the single hammer tap (you are talking about setting a hand placed beak, not fully driving a beak no?) and how is your second going to remove your hammer fisted placement without a few hammer strikes of their own? They'll probably use a tool in conjunction with a hammer so the soution was already there! (Or they'll just leave the piton if they only have their own iron hammer of God as a cleaning tool I suppose) Oh the placement wasn't overdriven so it's easier to clean? Probably didn't need to your fist of Mjölnir in the first place

You can also prevent over driving the piton by, *gasp* not over driving the piton. 

Creativity is great, but on a wall, practicality is better 

Yeah I've thought about some of this a bit and I guess I'll need to maybe write a blog post (to probably be read by about 3 people) about the philosophical justifications, the physics of hand vs hammer striking, and what might motivate someone to use this technique. But if you're convinced off the bat that its impractical, poorly motivated, etc. then cool, do your thing.

But for now I'll just briefly reply to a few points: 

"If the place doesn't allow hammered placements then don't hammer or stroke or fist hammer strike your placements"

So I think everyone agrees that striking a placement with your gloved fist is legit when hand-placing. Like that style is sort of contained in the concept of hand-placed, and if you like arguments from authority, CMac says it's clean as well, to be distinguished from hammering.  If you don't accept that premise then we probably just have different views and there isn't that much to say. Like the debate would turn into a silly word game about the real meaning of hammering. But if you accept the premise, then striking the beak with a gloved fist with a camhook underneath probably also should count as hand-placed/non-hammered rather than hammered because it is much more similar to a gloved fist than even a small 5 oz hammer in terms of the potential forces generated and the propensity for making hammer strike marks on the rock.

"how is your second going to remove your hammer fisted placement without a few hammer strikes of their own? "

You are clearly way more experienced with what it takes to clean beaks in a wide variety of situations, but I've done a couple of pitches in the style and a fair amount of bouldering with this style, and I've never placed a beak yet that I couldn't clean by pulling up on the carabiner and then jerking the cleaning loop with a sling, usually only once.

"Probably didn't need to your fist of Mjölnir in the first place"

Yeah its possible that as I mature as an aid climber that this will have less appeal, but on the routes and boulders that I have tried, it has been a difference maker. But presummably there will always be a set of placements that are on the borderline where this technique might keep someone from tagging up the hammer.

"You can also prevent over driving the piton by, *gasp* not over driving the piton"

Yeah, that seems right as far as it goes, but it seems a bit like arguing against safety razors by saying *gasp* just don't cut yourself. It would be fairly easy for a relatively inexperienced climber (which will always describe most climbers) to overdo it if they're tired, gripped, scared, benighted, and all that. Also, having a hammer on hand gives the climber the option to overdrive if gripped or stumped. Not having a hammer with you on lead is like issuing a guarantee to yourself and others that you're not going to overdo it.

But whatever, I'm a let a bunch of flowers bloom sort. What you're doing is clearly successful. I'm just sharing what I'm doing. Is it impractical? Maybe for what you're doing, but it has opened up some cool possibilities for me and seems worth ongoing experiment

Not a Hammer 

Jack Powerswrote:

Yeah I've thought about some of this a bit and I guess I'll need to maybe write a blog post (to probably be read by about 3 people) about the philosophical justifications, the physics of hand vs hammer striking, and what might motivate someone to use this technique. But if you're convinced off the bat that its impractical, poorly motivated, etc. then cool, do your thing.

The problem is that you think you have something new. 

We're not unconvinced off the bat, we're unconvinced because all of us are up there trying different things and people have been discussing the merits of various non-hammer hammers on bigwalls around the campfire for decades. 

We're not convinced because once the novelty of navel gazing at our own creativity wears off, we tend to settle onto what is the most practical balance between speed, weight, and usability. Sometimes new techniques settle into the cannon, but generally, what's been tried and tested works best because it's been tried and tested. 

Kevin DeWeesewrote:

The problem is that you think you have something new. 

We're not unconvinced off the bat, we're unconvinced because all of us are up there trying different things and people have been discussing the merits of various non-hammer hammers on bigwalls around the campfire for decades. 

We're not convinced because once the novelty of navel gazing at our own creativity wears off, we tend to settle onto what is the most practical balance between speed, weight, and usability. Sometimes new techniques settle into the cannon, but generally, what's been tried and tested works best because it's been tried and tested. 

Too piggyback off of this, the “hammer alternatives” mentioned are just a super convoluted way to technically say you had a “hammerless ascent” when in reality you just used a shitty version of a hammer that doesn’t work in corners; and last I checked El Cap has a lot of corners.

Instead of interpreting what hammerless means like you’re reading a law document, just tick the route and say “lightly tapped in a beak with a hammer”

EDIT: Hammer?

#bigwallcirclejerk

Mark Hudonwrote:

So, simply learn how to climb it clean! It’s been done hammerless a million times, how hard can it be? It’s not C10!

I agree with this, we did it clean in '94 and there have been a lot of newer gears like totems, stronger micronuts and offsets that surely make things easier...

James Arnoldwrote:

I agree with this, we did it clean in '94 and there have been a lot of newer gears like totems, stronger micronuts and offsets that surely make things easier...

Maybe…

I did it clean or almost clean in 95, and then Clean in 2019.. my old man memory is that it’s actually harder now- way less fixed gear for sure.. 

check out the how not 2 yt chan

ryan and a math teacher now have a new big wall bible 

https://youtu.be/2dxPZObSgcE

and playlist of big wall videos

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT3L-S4Bd4KD0PHpxjMnQnx8KisQ7MAYn

Maybe Considerwrote:

check out the how not 2 yt chan

ryan and a math teacher now have a new big wall bible 

https://youtu.be/2dxPZObSgcE

and playlist of big wall videos

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLT3L-S4Bd4KD0PHpxjMnQnx8KisQ7MAYn

I met that math teacher last season and he took me up Nutcracker. He is a stunningly competent climber. He may have only climbed eight walls but with how competent and knowledgeable he is you would think he had climbed many more. I am really stoked that he is working with Ryan to make this, I think he's the perfect person to bring on board for this. This series of videos is going to be seriously legit. 

I agree they are expensive, and I certainly won’t buy them, but borrowing them from a friend for the nose was a dream with extremely windy conditions. I’ll stick to the cheap walkies personally 

In a few dozen El Cap and wall routes over 50 years I’ve never needed walkie-talkies of any sort.
To me, it’s a sure sign of a less than advanced team.

I like the idea of having a talky and usually have one with partnered climbs for those windy days but this time arounds I plan is to be there alone, solo... 

anyone have experience with cell reception on the east side of Elcap?

my last trip, (2014) we had good reception at the base... but nothing a few pitches up on the New Dawn Wall..

any suggestion on reliable providers would be much appreciated,

thanks,

Dennis

Dennis Garciawrote:

any suggestion on reliable providers would be much appreciated,

thanks,

Dennis

When Sprint merged with T-Mobile my service went from pathetic to pretty damn good on El Cap 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Thanks for the vote of confidence in those of us that have hearing deficiencies that benefit from adaptive measures. 

Ha! I have a hearing aid these days but I still don't see the need for walkie talkies.