The Ethics of "Secret" Crags

David K, you need to just relax and quit trying to pick a fight. Going back to your response to my original post:

• What I saw as the future was my future. An opportunity to develop multi-pitch sport routes at a level that I could realize. Self aggrandizing? You clearly don't get new route development.
• If my future was choss, then why did others fill in much harder routes after the fact? If it was choss, they wouldn't have bothered. They saw their own future, whether or not it matches up to your version of the future or not, and they chose to bolt it.
• There are literally two parking spots up a two-track road that crosses private land. Two camp sites with access issues. You literally don't know a god-damn thing about which you spout.
• Why should anyone care what I think? Why should anyone care what you think? As far as I am concerned, you are a random douche who has chosen to flame me when I made an honest effort to respond to a legitimate question posed to the climbing community.
• You don't know a god-damn thing about the crag I'm talking about. You're just spouting off for reasons I don't even understand.
• Punchline: The crag I am talking about is being dealt with by local climbers, to resolve access issues, to deal with "publishing it". It's not up for me 20+ years later, or you, some random douche god knows where in the country, to say what the locals should do today. My say in it passed long ago. I would say you have no say in it whatsoever. Go f*ck off and climb some routes that other people established, whether secret or not. Come back and talk to me after you have considered some of this.
• Relax. All this stuff works itself in the long run.

Schroederings chip. Can a route be chipped if it’s at a secret crag?

Cant complain about chipping if the crag is a secret! Good to know!

Nice

Sweet

Nice

David Kwrote:

You're the problem.

Parking issues = "Waaaaah I didn't get up early enough  ".

Farley is yet another example of how not having a guidebook and limited parking can keep a crag from getting overcrowded, without it being a secret.

No. Except from you: you're added to my personal "not cool enough to learn about the areas I'm developing" list.  

Exactly. Farley is a success story.

Potato potato.

Sure, other people are better at finding spots than I am.

Looking at my post history, do I strike you as someone who cares whether everyone likes me?   I have quality friends, that's all the approval I need.

Oh FFS. Don't wank in public, that's a sex crime.

If the area is sensitive, keeping it secret just means that other people looking for new areas will wander in without knowing what's sensitive about it, and potentially do damage. And the reality is that people who think they're better than everyone else, tend to not be great land maintainers. Antisocial in one way, usually means antisocial in a few ways.

To keep the crowds or certain people away: what makes you think you're better than everyone else? Do you not see how this is pretty douchey?

Avoid accusations of being a braggart sprayer? Weren't you just lecturing on how people need to come to acceptance that people don't like them?

Maybe if you were more of a braggart sprayer you could've published the correct grades?

Oh man, this must have been so hard for you!

So... secrecy wasn't necessary?

So you think that "keeping the crowds or certain people away" (but not yourself) is humility or that this is for the betterment of others? You think that "avoiding accusations of being a braggart sprayer" is humility, or that it's for the betterment of others? Do you even hear yourself?

Pot, why you gotta do kettle like that?

Why would the default be anything? Do what you want. I'm not telling you to announce your discoveries. If you don't want to tell people, that's fine. Where it becomes douchey and elitist is when you start trying to control other people, i.e. expecting them to keep secrets and only telling people who will keep secrets.

Apartment boulders, which I mentioned upthread, is an area I discovered exactly as you describe: I noticed driving nearby that there was a hillish thing that looked like a lot of other areas with boulders around here, so scoped it out and hiked up on a rest day, and found trash and boulderers smoking weed. I only found out it was called Apartment Boulders when I met people there. I added it to MP because I wanted to tick some stuff. But of course it got deleted, because people like me carrying out trash will be an access issue, right?

Well, the cultural shift has grown up more than you realize--I'm 35 for example. But I agree in principle: benefitting from other people's sharing and then pulling up the ladder behind you is definitely something mostly only boomers "get".  

Your comments on this thread have provided the best reason for keeping places secret, for as long as possible. Thank God for long approaches!!! 

David Kwrote:I added it to MP because I wanted to tick some stuff. 

For real?

LL2wrote:

David K, you need to just relax and quit trying to pick a fight. Going back to your response to my original post:

• What I saw as the future was my future. An opportunity to develop multi-pitch sport routes at a level that I could realize. Self aggrandizing? You clearly don't get new route development.
• If my future was choss, then why did others fill in much harder routes after the fact? If it was choss, they wouldn't have bothered. They saw their own future, whether or not it matches up to your version of the future or not, and they chose to bolt it.
• There are literally two parking spots up a two-track road that crosses private land. Two camp sites with access issues. You literally don't know a god-damn thing about which you spout.
• Why should anyone care what I think? Why should anyone care what you think? As far as I am concerned, you are a random douche who has chosen to flame me when I made an honest effort to respond to a legitimate question posed to the climbing community.
• You don't know a god-damn thing about the crag I'm talking about. You're just spouting off for reasons I don't even understand.

You're missing my point: NOBODY knows what you're talking about, because you're withholding information. You could be right, you could be straight up lying. For all we know, this place doesn't even exist.

My point is: all the people defending secret crags here just want us to trust them, that really, deep down, they have our best interests in mind. If we ask for proof, conveniently, it's all secret!

A much more likely explanation of your behavior is that you just want your private playground for you and your little clique, and don't care about anyone else.

I have some secret reason that every crag everywhere needs to be published on MP. You don't believe me? Why not? 

• Punchline: The crag I am talking about is being dealt with by local climbers, to resolve access issues, to deal with "publishing it".

I'm literally not even asking you to "publish it", which you would know if you bothered to read anything I've written.

• It's not up for me 20+ years later, or you, some random douche god knows where in the country, to say what the locals should do today. My say in it passed long ago. I would say you have no say in it whatsoever.

That's true, which is why it's puzzling to me that you are still trying to exert control over what other people do.

• Relax. All this stuff works itself in the long run.

I'm not the one telling people to "f*ck off" and calling them "douchebags". You're the one doing those things, fam.

If calmly describing your own behavior to you is offensive to you, maybe behave better?

Kyran Keislingwrote:

Your comments on this thread have provided the best reason for keeping places secret, for as long as possible. Thank God for long approaches!!! 

The crag I've just started developing has over a 5 mile round trip hike. You're not safe!  

nbrownwrote:

For real?

Yes. Do you have any actual objection or are you just whining?

Before you whinge about access--the last time I was at Apartment Boulders I dragged out most of a kitchen size trash bag of trash. All in all, I think I've actually spent more time cleaning up than climbing at that particular location. Keeping it secret clearly isn't working to responsibly manage that land. What have YOU done to help? EDIT: To be clear, I'm asking, what have you done to help AT APARTMENT BOULDERS?

I see you're in Colorado, so I think I can reasonably assume you've done absolutely nothing.

I came here to find hints of secret Tehipites within a day’s drive and all I got was brain damage 

Will C wrote:

Yeah. Get the fuck over it, dude. People are naturally selfish to some degree and they are allowed to be. There is nothing wrong with that. Your argument boils down to 'secrets are unethical via their exclusivity and therefore nobody should have secret crags'. Which is an absolutely stupuid take. You have some serious entitlement issues, too. Grow up.

Well, at least you're admitting that this is about selfishness and not about maintaining access or using the land responsibly. I guess that's progress.

David, you seem like such a nice dude, i am going to grant you special permission to my secret crag

So David, Have you ever put in the time energy and effort to put routes in, make belay stances, trundle rocks, buy the hardware, install the hardware, break and maintain trail, Scrub the rock, make topos...basically have you ever contributed to expanding accessible climbing or are you just bummed that you feel left out due to your entitlement?

Every "secret" crag Ive gotten wind of, i've been able to get beta for by engaging with local community and offering to say help establish trail, scrub rock, or basically be a helpful person. Have I ever been shut down once I have gotten an ear with the appropriate people? no.

Secret crags aren't secret just because YOU didn't get included. The rocks are accessible by anyone, no one is gatekeeping your ability to find them and climb them. (Maps are dope).
Do I owe you directions to the crag I put routes on? No.
Can I tell you not to climb them if you found them? No.
Can you spray to the masses about any crag you find? Sure.
Do I think I'd give you any beta after your rants here? No.

David Kwrote:

I haven't been blacklisted from any crags (that I know of!).

If you weren’t before, you definitely are now.

Aaron Waitwrote:

I've been participating in a somewhat interesting debate regarding the ethics of keeping crags secret.  One of the more interesting aspects of this debate is that there are varying degrees of secrecy.  For example, if one knows there are potentially developed rock climbs in X location then technically those climbs aren't completely secret.  One term that could be used in the place of secrecy is "accessibility".    Vague mountainproject descriptions with no pictures are less accessible and informative then say, a fully detailed and well written guidebook.   

The burning questions are really:  

• At what point (ie under what criteria) should the details of a crag (or boulders or route etc) be made accessible to the general public?  
• Should some climbs be fully exempt from accessibility (or even be completely kept secret)?
• Who gets to decide when details become accessible?  What if there is no clear first ascensionist? 

Let me get you started with some examples:

• Illegally Bolted Crag:  Say that someone illegally bolted sport climbs in a wilderness.  One could justifiably argue that the crag should not be secret and the developers should be punished for doing things illegally.  On the other side one could argue that the crag should remain secret so the developers don't get punished and overall access threatened in the area, AND if you know about the crag you can continue to climb there crowd free.
• Fun Easy sport Multipitch with short approach near population center that you personally developed:  Say you developed a fun easy multipitch near a large population center. On one side if you made details accessible the route would get tons of traffic. On the other side, if the route got tons of traffic it could mean lines and limit your own experience on the route (which you after all developed)
• Quality Boulders near population center with no clear first ascensionist:  Say you and a select group of long-time locals share a detailed mini guide book for a bouldering area near a major population center, but the first ascensionists are no longer around. On one side making the information publicly accessible (e.g. adding it to MP) could mean more boulders are developed in the area along with easing of traffic to other nearby areas. On the other side you know the boulders would become crowded and the parking is somewhat limited.

What are folks thoughts?

No middle ground, public property is public and excuses otherwise are selfish.

I have the SafeBeyond app. When I die it will post to MP all the secrets crags I've developed.

Mr Rogerswrote:

So David, Have you ever put in the time energy and effort to put routes in, make belay stances, trundle rocks, buy the hardware, install the hardware, break and maintain trail, Scrub the rock, make topos...basically have you ever contributed to expanding accessible climbing or are you just bummed that you feel left out due to your entitlement?

Yes, I have done a little route development, and quite a bit of picking up after people. And as far as I know, I've never been left out of a crag.

Do I owe you directions to the crag I put routes on? No.
Can I tell you not to climb them if you found them? No.
Can you spray to the masses about any crag you find? Sure.

It doesn't seem like you and I actually disagree on any of these points, so I'm not sure why you're responding as if we disagree.

At this point I've said what I'm gonna say, and people are just either not reading/understanding what I've said, or they're whining I don't respect their right to exclude people. So if nobody has anything new to discuss, I'm out.

What's funny is there's plenty of crags that could really use MORE traffic to clean up, but like many secret crags they are a challenge to get to (longer drive, dirt road, longer approach) so even when the word gets out not many people go there.

David Kwrote: The crag I've just started developing has over a 5 mile round trip hike. You're not safe!  

Yes. Do you have any actual objection or are you just whining?

Before you whinge about access--the last time I was at Apartment Boulders I dragged out most of a kitchen size trash bag of trash. All in all, I think I've actually spent more time cleaning up than climbing at that particular location. Keeping it secret clearly isn't working to responsibly manage that land. What have YOU done to help?

I see you're in Colorado, so I think I can reasonably assume you've done absolutely nothing.

Yeah, I've never do anything for the community... bless your heart. 

Definitely not from Colorado, but I am stuck here for now.

Call me crazy but I thought climbing was about climbing, not about how many ticks you can accumulate. That's just ridiculous. 

Good on you for at least picking up after others. That's pretty rare with climbers nowadays. 

This has been an interesting thread. I'll just say that I now live about 1000 miles from the crag I'm talking about. A crag I bolted routes on many years ago. The notion that I am trying to keep it secret for selfish reasons is ridiculous, then and now. At the time, I told every climbing buddy I had that bolted to come check it out, and every partner I had for that matter. Most couldn't be bothered. Too far to drive for a crag of "unknown worth". As if I didn't know what good rock was, lol. My point is that I shared it happily with all my friends, but I didn't think the place needed to be posted to MP. And I certainly didn't try to promote myself with "secret area" Instagram teasers. Instagram didn't even exist. Yes, even though I had a secret, I think people dangling it out there for self promotion are ... douches.

The crag has been found by others and developed further. The access issues remain, as far as I can ascertain. The parking and camping issues are a real part of that. There is a small, devoted community in the area. I think it is up to them to work out the issues, and to make the decision whether or not to reveal the place. It's not for me or random MP posters to say what ought to be done there. Sorry if I was an ass, David K, but it just seemed like you were being one unnecessarily. You were actually the one to introduce the word "douche" into the conversation. Cheers, all.

nbrownwrote:

Yeah, I've never do anything for the community... bless your heart. 

Definitely not from Colorado, but I am stuck here for now.

Call me crazy but I thought climbing was about climbing, not about how many ticks you can accumulate. That's just ridiculous. 

Good on you for at least picking up after others. That's pretty rare with climbers nowadays. 

Lmaooo this is hilarious. Nbrown here probably has 500+ FAs to his name, an additional who knows how many more that he cleaned and then handed off to other developers so they could have it. Miles of trail built, tons of people mentored and somehow not that many MP arguments to his name. Anytime I find a new spot, he's the first person I contact because I know he actually gives a shit about any place he attaches his name to. 

Honestly though, I'm 100% confident David has never done any sort of development that goes further than maybe slightly brushing the exact holds he wants to use on a boulder and calling it an FA. He's almost certainly either manic or trolling and either way shouldn't be interacted with.