Grigri is the shittiest assisted breaking belay device on the market

People cling to Grigri because it is the first on the market and it is most common. People are used to it and accept its defect as a matter-of fact. Because people are so used it, they seldom have motivation to try other devices.

The main flaw of this post is summed up in that statement. 

If you came in and stated the pros and cons of different devices this post would've had value. Instead you assume other people haven't done their own research and come to different conclusions about what works best for them. 

Grigris aren't the best devices for noobs, but they made the grigri + for them. For regular belaying Grigris are fine for people who know what they are doing. And for some purposes locking up easier is desired: belaying a light weight partner with rope drag, self belay, simul-climbing, route developing, etc. 

OP, I lean toward a few of your arguments, and do believe the Gri Gri is far from an ideal device for lead belay. I thought Lifeguard was a step up....until I tried converting Gri Gri aficionados. Each of them refused to learn proper feeding technique, and made the same fatal operating error with the Lifeguard that they do with the Gri Gri: letting go of the brake strand while overriding the cam. Assuming my belayer is going to make this error (and most people I know who were trained with the Gri Gri do on occasion), I'd rather the device have an obnoxiously hyper-sensitive cam.

The Gri Gri belayer who can reliably avoid short-roping and letting go of the brake strand is a rare specimen, and worthy of respect. In my experience, the same can be said for Lifeguard users.

Clearly, most of what's being argued here centers more on the user than the device. But the device influences the psychology/behavior of the user. I suspect that we could have reduced vehicle emissions and traffic congestion by outlawing the automatic transmissions on internal combustion vehicles--largely because this would have forced people to pay more attention. Of course, that never happened.

My nephew was suspended from school for having a grigri in his back pack, I thought his dad kept them in his belay safe. Luckily it wasn’t loaded and there was no chance he could short rope someone on the swing set but scary nonetheless.

did adam fall? i don’t see any news about it. 

Logan Petersonwrote:

The Gri Gri belayer who can reliably avoid short-roping and letting go of the brake strand is a rare specimen

this is a complete load of BS.

Brandon R wrote:

JFC, look literally directly under the bold text. The part you're bold-texting/cherry-picking is wondering about how they're actually used in the general climbing population, with proper and improper use factored in, not comparing two belayers with perfect technique. Now stop humping my leg. 

Edit: Which knife works best for leg humpers?

Sincere edit for Jordan: It seems that any time someone makes some proclamation concerning safety on MP, someone else counters with "show me the study". Is the grigri the only topic exempt from this? That's what my initial reply to Marc was on about. Somehow, the standard of evidence for the 'grigri is absolutely safer all the time' crowd is simply "it's obvious" but for anything/anyone else it's "show me a statistically significant study or it's not true"? I'm not even anti-grigri, I just think there are better devices so I'm not joining the bandwagon. It's the dogma and double standards that bug me. As for your nitpicking what I said, FFS, I even prefaced with "I've always viewed it as..." and still somehow you've deemed me as "misleading". And I never even said tubes are safer, I just questioned whether, given the grigri's potential for common misuse, THEY are safer. This is why you are a leg humper, Jordan. 

If you really want statistics look up tube style accidents with gyms, you'll get plenty of stats as to why gyms ban tubes and a fairly good study on why Singapore banned them for all gym use. I'll let you look into the stats because my work computer only uses Microsoft  edge and doesn't copy website links over as they come across like this "Incidents Down After Tube Belay Ban in Singapore - Climbing Business Journal". Also sadly gym goers are a pretty good glimpse into what "the general climbing population" is. As Lena posted it gets hard for climbing outside stats but that's because most people who are falling a lot don't need stats to tell them assisted brake devices are safer.

I'm not saying grigri's are the best assisted device either, use what you like.

You're moving your argument around. I'm not nit picking, your question literally says “On the flip side of this, I've always wanted to see a similar proper statistical study looking to see if the use of grigris is actually safer than use of tube devices”.  If you know they are safer then why are you asking for stats? Even with common use among the general population they are still going to be more safe than tubes due to superior design.  

Also leg humper? Hope your day gets better Brandon no hard feeling, hope you don't need that knife violence isn't the way to go even with leg humpers. 

Jordan Wilsonwrote:

You're moving your argument around. I'm not nit picking, your question literally says “On the flip side of this, I've always wanted to see a similar proper statistical study looking to see if the use of grigris is actually safer than use of tube devices”.  If you know they are safer then why are you asking for stats? Even with common use among the general population they are still going to be more safe than tubes due to superior design.  

Also leg humper? Hope your day gets better Brandon no hard feeling, hope you don't need that knife violence isn't the way to go even with leg humpers. 

I'm not moving my argument around, you're reading something that was never there. I'm not saying that either device is safer (or less safe) in the hands of a competent, attentive belayer that knows how to properly use their chosen device, outside of specific situations like rockfall knocking the belayer out. Outside of those occurrences, in the hands of attentive, competent belayers, both are perfectly safe. I'm simply holding back from making any absolute conclusion. Outside of Lena's contribution (which admittedly has it's own shortcomings), I've never seen any study to suggest either is safer, which is what I was asking about. It sounds like you're suggesting otherwise (I did say I thought I was in the minority with that), so please, explain the obvious thing that I'm missing (that I haven't already conceded). I don't know, are you offended that I'm interested in seeing a study that might inform people on their hard-held opinions? 

Brandon Rwrote:

 I don't know, are you offended that I'm interested in seeing a study that might inform people on their hard-held opinions? 

I think he’s offended because you called him a leg humper 

Greg Daviswrote:

I think he’s offended because you called him a leg humper 

I'm not sure whats worse, a leg humper or a ball cupper?

M Mwrote:

I'm not sure whats worse, a leg humper or a ball cupper?

That depends entirely upon the leg, and the balls, respectively.

M Mwrote:

I'm not sure whats worse, a leg humper or a ball cupper?

Cupping balls is often necessary and always impactful

Greg Daviswrote:

I think he’s offended because you called him a leg humper 

The direction this went has me lol-ing! I might have the terminology wrong, but I thought that a leg humper was someone who stalks someone for self gratification purposes only. Whereas a ball cupper is someone who gives support (likes), but can't offer anything of substance themselves (see: minion). In any case, what kind of utensil does one have to use to scrape them off?!?

Brandon Rwrote:

The direction this went has me lol-ing! I might have the terminology wrong, but I thought that a leg humper was someone who stalks someone for self gratification purposes only. Whereas a ball cupper is someone who gives support (likes), but can't offer anything of substance themselves (see: minion). In any case, what kind of utensil does one have to use to scrape them off?!?

I think you've got that backwards, everyone wants their balls cupped, and no one derives pleasure from a leg humping.

Sorry for the potential kink shame

PWZwrote:

I think you've got that backwards, everyone wants their balls cupped, and no one derives pleasure from a leg humping.

Sorry for the potential kink shame

Now I'm really confused. He didn't call them a 'leg' but a 'leg humper.' The humper is getting some pleasure I think.

GriGri is funny. I've used it since it came out, off-and-on (mostly on these days). They made it, eventually realized that it wasn't used as intended (grabbing the whole thing to throw slack) then years later came up with a 'patch' to use it (thumb press). In the early days of grigri - early-mid 90s - no one used or even knew about the 'official' way to use it. I learned to use it by and with peers, mostly in Rifle and other sport areas at this time and we all just grabbed it and the brake hand was pretty optional, nt only when feeding slack but at pretty much any point. Within a few years, as accidents started to shed light on the pitfalls of the grigri, then Petzl came out with the thumb-press technique as the official way to use it. Newer devices have the advantage of standing on the shoulders of the grigri and are tested/recommended for various failure modes more thoroughly. GriGri is one of the best, or maybe the best, but it takes some practice and knowledge. 

Hope for Movementwrote:

Now I'm really confused. He didn't call them a 'leg' but a 'leg humper.' The humper is getting some pleasure I think.

GriGri is funny. I've used it since it came out, off-and-on (mostly on these days). They made it, eventually realized that it wasn't used as intended (grabbing the whole thing to throw slack) then years later came up with a 'patch' to use it (thumb press). In the early days of grigri - early-mid 90s - no one used or even knew about the 'official' way to use it. I learned to use it by and with peers, mostly in Rifle and other sport areas at this time and we all just grabbed it and the brake hand was pretty optional, nt only when feeding slack but at pretty much any point. Within a few years, as accidents started to shed light on the pitfalls of the grigri, then Petzl came out with the thumb-press technique as the official way to use it. Newer devices have the advantage of standing on the shoulders of the grigri and are tested/recommended for various failure modes more thoroughly. GriGri is one of the best, or maybe the best, but it takes some practice and knowledge. 

I'm in agreement with most of what you say BUT officially they want you to use it like a tube device most of the time, the thumb thing is occasionally. 

M Mwrote:

I'm in agreement with most of what you say BUT officially they want you to use it like a tube device most of the time, the thumb thing is occasionally. 

I agree. They'd rather the belayer never use the 'work-around.' In reality, I'm sure they know that the thumb press is employed a LOT. If they would make some very small modifications, making it slightly more ergonomic to use the thumb area and the ridge for the index and/or middle finger(s), many of these qualms would dissipate. I can envision a version where you can press with your thumb as is done now, but a fall would more readily pop your thumb off of the devise, or decrease leverage in some way so that a sudden fall results in less leverage or the thumb slipping off of the devise. At the same time, maybe is could be less ergonomic to grab the whole device, to inhibit overriding it in that way.

Greg Davis wrote:

Fun fact: Most people are unaware that the grigri only works if you are wearing belay glasses.

Jordan Wilsonwrote:

How did he know my darkest secret?!?!?!?! WE LIVE IN A SOCIETY! 

@ Brandon hope this helps https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAQQw7AJahcKEwiYp6bBvIX6AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.alpenverein.de%2Fchameleon%2Fpublic%2Fd4ce5dd2-3456-0e69-f1e9-877eee9b6eaa%2FClimbing-gym-study-2012-english-Panorama-2-13_24301.pdf&psig=AOvVaw0weestKMY8HYVWEwPKgKtv&ust=1662735989667944

There quite a few more out there, all of them show emphatic evidence that assisted brake devices are safer. 

Well, I looked down and there you were. Then I looked again later, and there you were again... I'm not sure what it is about my leg that is so attractive to you. 

That link you posted is the same one Lena posted already. Are you counting that as 2 studies? Given your first comment to me, the irony is quite palpable. 

Now, for something that you stated was so obvious, why are there so many studies on the topic? Are all of those conducting the studies idiots for wasting their time trying to prove the obvious? I made a comment on another thread along the lines of "those accusing others of lacking reading comprehension are often the ones lacking it"... I'll leave it at that if you agree to move on and let people have differing opinions. 

Hope for Movementwrote:

At the same time, maybe is could be less ergonomic to grab the whole device, to inhibit overriding it in that way.

Just cover the bottom of the device in sharp spikes. Then no one will grab the entire thing!