The Ethics of "Secret" Crags

I've been participating in a somewhat interesting debate regarding the ethics of keeping crags secret.  One of the more interesting aspects of this debate is that there are varying degrees of secrecy.  For example, if one knows there are potentially developed rock climbs in X location then technically those climbs aren't completely secret.  One term that could be used in the place of secrecy is "accessibility".    Vague mountainproject descriptions with no pictures are less accessible and informative then say, a fully detailed and well written guidebook.   

The burning questions are really:  

• At what point (ie under what criteria) should the details of a crag (or boulders or route etc) be made accessible to the general public?  
• Should some climbs be fully exempt from accessibility (or even be completely kept secret)?
• Who gets to decide when details become accessible?  What if there is no clear first ascensionist? 

Let me get you started with some examples:

• Illegally Bolted Crag:  Say that someone illegally bolted sport climbs in a wilderness.  One could justifiably argue that the crag should not be secret and the developers should be punished for doing things illegally.  On the other side one could argue that the crag should remain secret so the developers don't get punished and overall access threatened in the area, AND if you know about the crag you can continue to climb there crowd free.
• Fun Easy sport Multipitch with short approach near population center that you personally developed:  Say you developed a fun easy multipitch near a large population center. On one side if you made details accessible the route would get tons of traffic. On the other side, if the route got tons of traffic it could mean lines and limit your own experience on the route (which you after all developed)
• Quality Boulders near population center with no clear first ascensionist:  Say you and a select group of long-time locals share a detailed mini guide book for a bouldering area near a major population center, but the first ascensionists are no longer around. On one side making the information publicly accessible (e.g. adding it to MP) could mean more boulders are developed in the area along with easing of traffic to other nearby areas. On the other side you know the boulders would become crowded and the parking is somewhat limited.

What are folks thoughts?

Bro this has been hashed out 100000000 times. Is this thread adding value to this discussion? 

Maybe make another grigri or soft catch thread. 

Connor Dobsonwrote:

Bro this has been hashed out 100000000 times. Is this thread adding value to this discussion? 

Maybe make another grigri or soft catch thread. 

Maybe you could summarize what's already been hashed out for me and we can keep this thread short :)

Sounds like your talking about Wylands Mt Si line, Bessemer and Middle fork bouldering!

People spraying about their secret crag being the best crag ever is the equivalent of hiding your holographic Charizard under your bed and not letting anyone see it. Its a neck beard thing.  

I guess the secret holder decides if and when?

I don't believe in ethics regarding keeping something secret. 

There is no moral obligation to share anything really.

The only rule of secret crags is if you have one you don’t mention it or post pictures of it and then say, “can’t tell you where but it’s good”. That shit is so annoying. If it’s secret, then shut up about it. 

• At what point (ie under what criteria) should the details of a crag (or boulders or route etc) be made accessible to the general public?  
• Should some climbs be fully exempt from accessibility (or even be completely kept secret)?
• Who gets to decide when details become accessible?  What if there is no clear first ascensionist? 

Answers:

• Never
• Absolutely
• No one

Locker · 10 mins ago · Yucca Valley, CA · Joined Oct 2002 · Points: 2,349

Locker wrote:

When the person doing the project decides...(Otherwise, you are a rat!!!)

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Answers:

• Never
• Absolutely
• No one

What if you are the developer trying to make the decision?  What do you factor in?

Your second and third answers make sense - but If i find and develop the crag.  What if you are the developer trying to make the decision?  What do you factor in?

Oh no, they make sense. Never reveal the location of a secret crag, Some crags or routes should be exempt from publication. 3rdly, a secret crag cannot be published and remain secret ergo no one can take the decision to publicize a secret crag, divide by zero results, stack over flow.

In my case? I refer to the first rule. I won't show a secret crag to anyone without first extracting their promise to NEVER reveal it.

If someone wants to help develop and they know what there doing I'm all for it. But just people climbing in my experience has made things harder. Depends on who asks really. Like if the puppy lover or chode asked for some beta I would give it to them cause they putting in work.

Simple pointer when you're putting in new stuff at your secret crag:

"Keep you friends close; keep your enemies closer"  -Sun Tzu

The only rule of “secret crags” should be that one shouldn’t spray about them on social media/to other climbers. That whole Mill Creek/Roy/Clark Mountain hype of about fifteen years ago was some first class annoying bullshit. 

If it’s safe, and you sent your projects then open it. If it’s unsafe and you still have to clean and send projects keep it closed.

A lot of time traffic helps clean things up, but if there’s still a lot of work to do, climbers will get in the way.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

People spraying about their secret crag being the best crag ever is the equivalent of hiding your holographic Charizard under your bed and not letting anyone see it. Its a neck beard thing.  

I mean, it's not a first edition but...

If there's a good reason to keep a crag secret, I'll keep it a secret. There are lots of possible good reasons.

"So we can have a private playground" is some elitist bullshit and not a good reason.

The reality is that a lot of these secret crags are only secret because they're choss and nobody cares to talk about them.

David Kwrote:

"So we can have a private playground" is some elitist bullshit and not a good reason.

.

Really, why is that? What’s the difference between someone never having found the crag and developed it, and someone not telling anyone about it? Either way, nobody knows about it. How exactly is that “Elitist”? I feel that word has become something so easily and often thrown around, without the one using it understanding it’s actual meaning. Kinda like the word “extreme”!  If you tell everyone about it but refuse to give directions, then yeah. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

People spraying about their secret crag being the best crag ever is the equivalent of hiding your holographic Charizard under your bed and not letting anyone see it. Its a neck beard thing.  

Can you elaborate on the origins of your whole “neck beard thing“ thing? 

Salamanizer Skiwrote:

Really, why is that? What’s the difference between someone never having found the crag and developed it, and someone not telling anyone about it?

The issue especially with the crags aaron is specifically talking about, is that every single god dam person has claimed to be a developer. For another area, I had two guys tell me they were developers and I asked what they developed, turns out they bolted a two bolt extension at a crag with like 30 routes. That is great, but if the trail has already been built and most the climbs have been done by someone else, I would be quite reluctant to claim credit for being a developer.

 Either way, nobody knows about it. 

That is the thing if you actually keep it to yourself but people don't. What ends up happening is a cliche of people claim they have found the greatest crag ever, spray about it relentlessly then spend more effort keeping the crag a secret than developing new climbs. Saying you found the best crag and then actively keeping people from climbing is super elitist. 

J T wrote:

Can you elaborate on the origins of your whole “neck beard thing“ thing?

Someone at some point said everyone was malding neck beards and as a person with a fantastically ability to grow a neck beard, I can spot fellow neck beards.

Michalwrote:

If someone wants to help develop and they know what there doing I'm all for it. But just people climbing in my experience has made things harder. Depends on who asks really. Like if the puppy lover or chode asked for some beta I would give it to them cause they putting in work.

Thanks but even a mountain of beta isn't enough to help me up some of your climbs.

Kyle Elliott wrote:

I mean, it's not a first edition but...

This should have more likes than my  comment!

C. Defecto wrote:

A. It’s not illegally bolted.

B.  It’s 14 pitches, 5.12, and runout with loose rock everywhere.  If that sounds like a fun and easy multi pitch, have at it.  With little intuition and motivation, you’ll find it.

C.  The only reason it’s not described online is because the approach likely weaves in and out of private property, and landowners have made it abundantly clear that they are armed and don’t want you there.  They also have game cameras.

But I’ll remember you said that Michal.  

Wy thank you for the beta! Im am not good enough to climb that but there is only one section of Si that isnt under DNR purview! Also, aaron could be talking about his own routes!

Wyland you the man. Let's do another chess game soon. I drove by you on Lake City way a few months back and honked and waved.