New Yosemite Big Wall Permitting Process 2023

Marc Hwrote:

I’m gonna have to go ahead and strongly disagree with you here.

The NPS and USFS are full of useless bureaucracy.

sure ground level people do not want this. But the higher ups sure do

John Shultzwrote:

One thing to consider is that you are forbidden from leaving the wilderness area, once your climbing permit starts. Based on what I saw during the three weeks I spent in the Valley in the spring, the result is that people are bivying lower on routes, rather than fixing and firing. Not necessarily a bad thing; I would rather be on El Cap myself. But the permit system is actually changing the way people are climbing walls. Also, if you need to come down to take care of something, you could find yourself running amuck of the rules. 

If you're going to fix and fire, then you presumably don't need a permit for the night that you fix (because you're not going to be sleeping on the wall).  I think that's implied in the FAQ here: https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/climbingpermits.htm 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

If nothing else, I’ve been able to get more efficient at climbing walls in a push since if you don’t plan to bivy and do not carry non-emergency bivy gear then the permit isn’t required

This does not seem to be in accordance with the rules here https://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/climbingpermits.htm -- "a wilderness permit is required for all overnight big wall climbs."  As with backpacking permits, they use the term "overnight" and make no mention of "camping."  You need a permit whether you sleep or not.

I nominate Kevin for official permit interpreter. Very good information, thanks bro   

Here at Zion NP's wilderness desk, we offer a 'Zion Express Membership.' You watch two videos - one on canyoneering safety and the other on LNT principals, fill out some general informational paperwork and then you can print your permits from home for up to 2+ calendar years.

I'm sure Yosemite will adopt this method of permit issuing, they're likely gathering data and will then implement something like what Zion offers.

Kevin... yet another excellent point .. and as a noob wall climber, one I can speak to directly. 

Talking to the rangers while grabbing our permit quite positively affected our decision-making on the Nose last spring. It was a cold week with a pretty rotten forecast. We were honest about our experience level and well, they put a healthy "fear of god" in us -- as well as mentioning a rescue they had to make earlier in the season. Seem to recall it was a soloist stranded in very bad weather.

Even though I think we were prepared, staying high and dry didn't sound as simple as just whipping out your synthetic bag and waterproof ledge/fly. The impression I got from the rangers was that your sh!t basically needs to be dialed if the weather really gets bad and even then it could get miserable fast .

We ended up spending a cozy night on the ledge (shout out to D4!) at Sickle after plowing thru snow filled cracks all day. The following morning, we contemplated the rangers' advice dramatically, like hearing the words of some kung fu sensei trying to guide your path. We opted to bail. The rest of the week wasn't horrendous but it rained each afternoon for a couple days. While I think taking your lickings on Yosemite's grand walls is all part of the game, I want to do it responsibly and represent climbers proudly. 

"he who has beans is a rich man"

I was climbing freeblast one November and it started to rain lightly. Lightly. Within 5 minutes the runnel next to my belay went from bone dry to a fast flowing river that looked like the water was coming from a firehose above. I had understood the concept of rain having nowhere to get adsorbed into on its way down the face as everything gutting the face exponentially adds to the wayer flow. But I never UNDERSTOOD  it until I saw that and immediately thought about that happening mid pitch or on your bivy. Fear of God and all that.

The other concern about weather in an emergency bivy when pushing instead of climbing in a normal wall style is the time it takes to bail when there's a break in the weather. It's cold, everything is wet, and the danger of hypothermia as you move slower dosh wet lines before you hit the ground is real. And the colder you get the worse your problem solving and deciding making becomes.  All the reason why sitting in your proper bivy and waiting it out with your extra water and  food 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Though I would be remiss in not adding that if you're new to bigwalling, trying to do a push instead of a normal style wall ascent as a way to get around the permit would be not only likely to result in a bail but can put you in a dangerous situation depending upon the wall and the weather. 

Sounds like the overnight permit system incentivizes risky behavior.  Maybe we'll need day-use permits too.  I'll mention it in my comments.

I’ve had a decent experience with the permit system so far. It would be cool to see metrics on how much trash is reduced by the system in a few years. Numbers talk in a much more coherent language than a lot of folks on MP.

Eric Santoswrote:

I’ve had a decent experience with the permit system so far. It would be cool to see metrics on how much trash is reduced by the system in a few years. Numbers talk in a much more coherent language than a lot of folks on MP.

I would question how much trash on the whole is reduced via FL efforts vs how much is added each year, my suspicion is (minus the large caches up top) it incrementally drops as FL goes on and continually makes a net dent in the amount on the wall(s). 

I'm not trying to poop on free climbers here, as i find it incredibly impressive to even attempt their efforts... but perhaps the NPS needs to focus more on them, if the NPS primary finger pointing is to these large caches up top... outside of that, I have yet to see the evidence that there's piles of trash everywhere, let alone compared to other parts of "wilderness." Alas, seems like the decision has already been made and only thing we can hope for is to have some influence on the process.

edit: also, what kevin said ^

This is a low blow to wall climbers. Overnight users are easily targeted. Permits are unnecessary to address the stated issues. Hopefully the rangers will work with climbers to create a FREE and user friendly system. 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

"Well it's facelift to might as well bring down some of this trash the freeclimbers that rap in to work their gnar gnar free ascents left behind")
 

Free ascents? I'll tell you, trash on El Cap was an issue far, far before El Cap ever was climbed free. There are hundreds of water bottles left on top that are certainly not all from free climbers. The slot behind Camp 6 on the Nose was filled decades before El Cap was every free climbed. I went spelunking down behind the Spire years ago and came back with big honking bag of various garbage. I've seen all sorts of garbage stuffed into crack and on ledges that no free climber has ever been.

I have had pretty good experiences with the big wall permit system. If the alternative is to not go to the park because I can't get a reservation for a campsite, I'll take a big wall permit any day. Has the permit system changed the wall I climb big walls? Hell yes. Has the change been all bad? No, not really. I used to be the guy who would drive down at the end of the day, arrive in the valley after midnight, sleep in my car and get up early before the rangers were out and head up to the wall. Now, i get up at a reasonable hour in the morning (Bay Area), drive down and arrive, oh, 1-2 PM. I make my way over to the permit kiosk, check in, and here's the thing- taking the time to go and set up camp at the back packer's camp is just a pain in the ass. No, I just head out to the base of the climb in the late afternoon and go up a pitch or two, and set up camp there. It is after all, why I am there. So, no, I don't think it is a big deal. It is better than not being allowed into the park. 

The rangers did quiz me a bit the first permit I got. I just told them I had watched a couple of youtube videos and thought I would be alright. They were fine with this. Ha Ha. They asked if we felt prepared. Which, honestly, is a reasonable question. No one ever asked me that back in the day, but we were kinda crazy back then. It was a bit like getting a hiking permit with a fire permit. Had to watch this horrendous video where they instructed people to scrape the grass and vegetation down to bare dirt in a circle with a 10' diameter! I was absolutely horrified! I just use a whisper light and set it on a rock, so no vegetation scraping for me.

Getting the permit on-line and being able to print it out would be much better than having to trek over to a tiny window during certain specified hours. Especially if you have already gone through the process. Also, the idea that there are only so many people on the route because of the permit is not what I saw. I took some first time wallers on Washington Column, which I would normally avoid as too crowded, and was told when I got my permit that there were no other parties registered. Well, we shared Dinner Ledge with three other parties. So, yeah, there's that.

Thinking about going up next week. I still need a partner and don;'t know exactly what day I will go. I hope the permit won't get in the way of having a good time.

It’s too bad that some climbers and climbing organizations think permits are ok. So far every wall climber I’ve talked to has nothing but negative feelings toward this whole deal. It’s a major turning point for climber freedom in Yosemite and totally unnecessary. I will no longer support any organizations that support permits. The future of the great sport of climbing is regulation. Welcome to the future.

T Rwrote:

 So far every wall climber I’ve talked to has nothing but negative feelings toward this whole deal..

It just hasn’t been an issue for me. I have essentially zero negative feelings toward the permit system. It’s slightly annoying to have to physically pick up the permit- but only really factors on faster ascents with less time spent in the park..

I’m not advocating for more regulations- and certainly this could be the tip of the iceberg and things could get way worse.. but I can’t really see any issues with the permit process as it is now.. 

Cali was one of the biggest economies in the world until massive regulations has caused the start of a mass exodus. The US in general is being driven into the ground because of over regulation, seems logical the climbing overlords would follow suit. Honestly though, with the coming economic crash, this is going to be the last thing on people's minds, except for maybe the trust finders that aren't effected by anything, and likely the ones that trash everywhere they go. 

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Cali was one of the biggest economies in the world until massive regulations has caused the start of a mass exodus. The US in general is being driven into the ground because of over regulation, seems logical the climbing overlords would follow suit. Honestly though, with the coming economic crash, this is going to be the last thing on people's minds, except for maybe the trust finders that aren't effected by anything, and likely the ones that trash everywhere they go. 

Hey, my dude, I'm from Silicon Valley. The state has been seeing "mass exodus" my entire life. California has grown massively as an economy in that time and has only become a more desirable place to live. 

Yes, people leave, and some of them even leave for the reason that you mention, but they are generally replaced by even more people than left. California will not experience a decreasing population in my lifetime probably ever. 

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

Cali was one of the biggest economies in the world...

...and it still is. I've been here for 8 years so far. I came here for a job, which are plentiful in certain fields. My girlfriend and I bought a house from our landlords who chose to move to Texas. Sure, there is an exodus of certain demographics, but there are also lots of opportunities which bring in lots of people from out of state. The exodus is mostly retirees and low skill workers, and for every one that leaves there are 5 more out there dreaming of sunny beaches. It is a challenging place to live for sure but it is silly to think that it is in decline.

Ricky Harlinewrote:

Yes, people leave... they are generally replaced by even more people than left. California will not experience a decreasing population in my lifetime probably ever. 

To be fair, i believe CA has had (net) decreasing population for the last two years - 

covid seemed to have a large influence on that, so we'll see if that trend changes by next year.

Back to topic at hand, seems mighty important that we all submit comments, requesting a Zion style system whereby we can access online permitting, without in-person pickup. I can understand a "first time, in-person" rule but after the first time it MUST be possible to obtain the permit solely online, and simply keep a screenshot on your phone (don't we care about the environment? stop printing paper that I'm going to throw away!), showing up "in-person" every single time is overbearing, IMO.

https://parkplanning.nps.gov/commentForm.cfm?documentID=121898 

Wasn’t the pilot program supposed to be a temp deal? To say it was a success during covid and to slide in major regulation is pretty low. 

I’d guess there are less climbers in the park now than at any time In the past few decades..