New Yosemite Big Wall Permitting Process 2023

In light of the NPS teasing out the impending introduction of more government bureaucracy, thought I'd ask if it's time for us to flood the pertinent NPS inbox(es) with emails detailing our concerns about any further restrictions on yosemite bigwalls. It's difficult enough for weekend warriors to show up to pick up a permit at 9a, when they could easily complete an online process and print it out at home, then leave it on their dash or put it in the haulbag. 

Specific to their post, I feel compelled to repeat some of the most salient points of the IG crowd, including the fact that they ripped off Eric Bissels photo with no attribution, which seems to be a photo from Facelift...which, IIRC, is a climber led effort to clean up the very trash that they accuse climbers of creating. Nobody is going to argue that there are no lazy climbers and that all climbers leave zero trace... but the percentage is certainly miniscule - and climbers are already what, 1-2% of total park users, at most? So the NPS seems to suggest that focusing on a small fraction of a small fraction of users is going to significantly improve the park. Seems that focusing on adding toilets to high use areas and taking litter reduction steps in the high litter areas might yield more noticeable improvements, but what do I know, I'm not the YNP brass.

We're certainly not perfect as a community but, compared to the rest of the park, our climbing areas are pretty darn nice looking, IMO. Perhaps the NPS may consider looking at the log in their own eye/campground/lodge/trail/picnic area, before trying to rectify the splinter on our bigwalls.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Chu_ZviNtua/

and thanks to Peter Beal for pointing out this article:

https://www.patagonia.ca/stories/cache-vs-trash/story-74277.html (YCA Facelift article)

Christian Heschwrote:

In light of the NPS teasing out the impending introduction of more government bureaucracy, thought I'd ask if it's time for us to flood the pertinent NPS inbox(es) with emails detailing our concerns about any further restrictions on yosemite bigwalls. It's difficult enough for weekend warriors to show up to pick up a permit at 9a, when they could easily complete an online process and print it out at home, then leave it on their dash or put it in the haulbag. 

Specific to their post, I feel compelled to repeat some of the most salient points of the IG crowd, including the fact that they ripped off Eric Bissels photo with no attribution, which seems to be a photo from Facelift...which, IIRC, is a climber led effort to clean up the very trash that they accuse climbers of creating. Nobody is going to argue that there are no lazy climbers and that all climbers leave zero trace... but the percentage is certainly miniscule - and climbers are already what, 1-2% of total park users, at most? So the NPS seems to suggest that focusing on a small fraction of a small fraction of users is going to significantly improve the park. Seems that focusing on adding toilets to high use areas and taking litter reduction steps in the high litter areas might yield more noticeable improvements, but what do I know, I'm not the YNP brass.

We're certainly not perfect as a community but, compared to the rest of the park, our climbing areas are pretty darn nice looking, IMO. Perhaps the NPS may consider looking at the log in their own eye/campground/lodge/trail/picnic area, before trying to rectify the splinter on our bigwalls.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Chu_ZviNtua/

Some random comments:

It's not about improving the park; it's about improving conditions on the walls.

If the percentage is so minuscule, why is a Facelift needed every year?

Technically, all the walls are designated wilderness - the standards there are higher.

"our climbing areas are pretty darn nice looking" - yet in the threads, descriptions, and comments, there's a lot of reference to doing walls in the spring, when they don't smell like urinals. What about that fun chimney on the HD NWF Direct that ends on Big Sandy?

From the Instagram link:

Cumulative effects of big wall climbing have led to degradation of wilderness values. Issues include proliferation of litter, human waste, abandoned property, improperly stored food, illegal fire rings and wind breaks, and preventable accidents. Despite extensive efforts by Yosemite climbing rangers and climbing stewards to improve education and outreach to climbers, increase patrols, and coordinate targeted clean-ups, there are still unacceptable impacts to the Wilderness character of Yosemite climbing areas. 

I doubt the NPS really wants more government bureaucracy and things to deal with, but frankly, we brought this on ourselves.

I've participated in every Facelift since the first one in 2004. The vast majority of the trash collected is not climber trash. Very little of the total comes from climbing areas. It comes from road sides, campgrounds, trails, river banks, housing areas, parking lots, etc. 

Marc801 Cwrote:

I doubt the NPS really wants more government bureaucracy and things to deal with…

I’m gonna have to go ahead and strongly disagree with you here.

Marc801 Cwrote:

Some random comments:

It's not about improving the park; it's about improving conditions on the walls.

If the percentage is so minuscule, why is a Facelift needed every year?

Technically, all the walls are designated wilderness - the standards there are higher.

"our climbing areas are pretty darn nice looking" - yet in the threads, descriptions, and comments, there's a lot of reference to doing walls in the spring, when they don't smell like urinals. What about that fun chimney on the HD NWF Direct that ends on Big Sandy?

From the Instagram link:

I doubt the NPS really wants more government bureaucracy and things to deal with, but frankly, we brought this on ourselves.

You really think permits are gonna improve the smell, hah.

Seems to me NPS is blowing the problem out of proportion. 

Those pictures are from Facelift 2018, which I happened to participate in, and it looked like most of the wall trash had been rotting there for years.

Compare that to the piles of garbage pulled from the same common spots in the park every year, much of which is recovered by the climbing community.

Feel like they should cut us some slack given the positive net impact. Also keep in mind those pictures raised awareness among climbers, surely our impact is already decreasing. 

But let's hear from Eric...

Christian - you only climb stuff IAD anyway!

Seriously, what the ranger told me when I picked up a permit this summer is that they want to talk with you in person about waste disposal. Their description, not mine. Uhhh I use a poop tube like every one else - poop in a bag, not directly in the tube.

I’d think that it could be more efficient if they could do the 5 min chat by Zoom. And I’d think one would only really need one interview/chat per year. And they would not need to staff the window for as many hours perhaps?

I talked to climbing ranger Jesse McGahee [sp?] about this. I asked him why something that had worked perfectly well [no permits] for the last fifty years really needed to be changed. I asked him why we needed this, and whose idea it was. "Well, if you need to put a name to it, you can put down mine." [thanks, buddy, sheesh] "It's only a pilot project, but when pilot projects are implemented, in my experience they usually are here to stay." [evidently true]

Biggest problem he cited: free climbers who come to the summit to work routes from the top down, leaving behind garbage. Anyone familiar with the term "sense of entitlement"? I was told that rangers carried down hundreds and hundreds of pounds of trash from the summit. The one climber-ranger-girl was really irate: "I am sick and tired of carrying down so much shit - and I mean SHIT! - from the summit that climbers leave behind up there!!" I'm sure some aid climbers could be known to leave behind trash too. He said something about flying pigs, but I had nothing to say about that.*  

Benefits: 

1. They know who is on what route when, and if they find garbage on top, they can possibly ask the climbers if it was they who left it behind. Those unfamiliar with their fifth amendment rights* have apparently answered yes, and been issued citations. 

2. It gives the rangers the opportunity to talk to everyone, and make sure they have proper big wall sanitation gear, and storm gear

3. It gives the rangers the opportunity to suggest to those obviously in over their heads that maybe El Cap might not be the right place for them right now. 

4. They are not limiting the number of climbers on popular routes like The Nose, at least not yet. 

There was some talk about a pilot project whereby you could sleep in your car the night before the wall. That would be a good thing.  

When I went to get my permit, it was straightforward.  Just a pain in the ass if you're there without wheels.  My take is that it's not as bad as I feared, but of course I am basically a libertarian dirtbag who disagrees with any type of regulation.  

While this may not be a popular opinion, I'll come out in support of this program. We are basically backpackers with some extra trinkets walking on wilderness that has been rotated 90 degrees from the norm. Backpackers need to get permits so it seems only fair climbers should too. If we are willing to work in good faith with the park service, then hopefully the practical implementation of the program will be fair and reasonable.

I think the Instagram post that Christian linked is rather unfortunate, as it features a picture of a clean up event that gives the impression we are leaving trash all over the place. Isn't that ironic! They should have shown a picture of a couple gumbies picking up their wall permit at the funny hobbit-hole window thing -- if only to promote finer accommodations for the climbing rangers (who are awesome and very helpful)!

My spine was at least 15% more curvy after humping only ONE haul bag down the East Ledges. I don't know how these SPORT climbers get all those ropes up there!

I don't trust the NPS intentions and motivations, but speaking pragmatically it seems that fighting against the establishment of a permit system is futile. That ship has sailed and it's not turning around  So that fight is not the best use of energy.

But there is still a lot of room to tweak the implementation of the permit system to make it less onerous. For example, allowing for same-day (or day-prior) walk-up permits would make the permit system much less restrictive and allow climbers the needed flexibility, while still giving rangers the information they want. Advocating for these things would be potentially productive. 

That’s right! They did ask about other stuff like how many walls have you done. I lied and told them I had done one wall route before - Native Son w Pass the Pitons Pete. I mentioned that he got too scared and I had to lead the Coral Sea pitch. I’d watched the video of him soloing the route and figured that’s pretty much the same as having climbed it together.  

Make sure to voice your concerns!

From August 23 through November 13, 2022, we will be accepting written comments as well as hosting a series of townhall meetings and other outreach events.

The following is the park's schedule for planning and implementation:
- September 7th, 2022 5:30-7:30pm Virtual Town Hall
- September 22nd , 2022 3:00-5:00pm Live Event at Yosemite Facelift
- October 16th, 2022 3:00-5:00pm Virtual Town Hall
- November 12th, 2022 Informal table at the "Bishop High Ball- Cragging Classic" Climbing Festival.
- November 2022: Analyze Public Comment
- Winter 2022: Management Decision
- January 2023: Public Rollout  

My comments:

Question 1: 

If you have used the pilot permit system in Yosemite in the last 2 years, how has this affected your experience?

"I have not used the permit system precisely because it is impossible for me to comply with. Before permits, I could drive from the Bay Area on a Friday night, sleep somewhere legal, and be climbing before first light Saturday morning. Because the permit system requires in-person pickup, this isn't feasible as a weekend warrior. So I simply haven't tried. If you view that as a success (one fewer climber clogging up the route) then I think you should rethink your priorities. I think this is an example of an unneeded regulation limiting access to one of the natural wonders of the world. 

In short, I think the permit system was a disaster for local climbers who actually have jobs."

"Unneeded regulation.

I have climbed many walls in the Valley and have not experienced the issues listed above. Climbers generally self-police and my understanding is that the walls are cleaner than they were 20 years ago, despite the increase in climbing. 

I've experienced trash, poop and other human impacts much more heavily in non-climbing areas of the park, and in non-wall climbing areas inside and outside the park. Again, this program is not needed."

Question 3: 

How can we adapt the permit system to better meet your needs as a climber?

"At the very least, allow for online or phone pickup of the permit. Having to go in person simply makes it impossible for weekend warriors to climb a 2-day wall (eg Washington Column, Leaning Tower) without taking a day off of work. I used to do this relatively frequently (and no, overcrowding isn't a big deal if you get up early) and now it's impossible. "

Other Comments:

"The comment and regulatory structure appears improper to me. The schedule lists public comment and workshops in the fall of 2022 and rollout in early 2023. But there's no provision for comment on a draft plan. This is improper, especially since the details of the plan will be so important."

Peter Zabrokwrote:Biggest problem he cited: free climbers who come to the summit to work routes from the top down, leaving behind garbage. 

Kind of a joke to ask these types for an overnight permit, most are day use and you’ll never see them spending the night unless you hike up there.  Most haul all their shit to the top, do some TRing, then never to be seen again.  Permit system does zero to address.

Kevin - it was a joke. It was my 4th El Cap and 14th Yos wall. 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

They already offer this during high season and have since the beginning. "Walk up climbing permits will be available at issuing stations for climbers already in the park."(https://yosemite.org/climbingpermits/) 

Ah, that is good to hear. This was not available though during the initial roll out in 2020, no? I recall hearing stories of people asking for walk-up permits and being unable to get them.

Any options for the weekenders? I.e. the arrive Friday night, start early Saturday morning folks? Or do they need to still book in an extra half day to go pick it up in person?

Glad to see a very productive discussion here. With respect to this system's effect on regular weekend climbers -- it seems reasonable that in exchange for signing off on an online permit, weekend climbers could gain access to a bivy spot in the park, say the backpacker's campground or near their wall of choice. I think we could prove that regular weekend climbers are not the issue here. They don't have enough time to trash the summit of El Cap!

I would like to hear people's thoughts ........ as to, what can we get out of this program? Would it be helpful to know how many parties are on a given route? What about a "tech tips" series put on by the climbing rangers? (I heard they crush, maybe they could teach me how to walk up my ladders more quickly than a banana slug.) Advanced weather reports to inform our decision-making and reduce preventable accidents? I saw a temperature/light sensor on the Zod last spring; perhaps we could be sent off as jolly citizen scientists with instructions written on our permits. If we help out then we can expect good things from a permit system.

Every time I’ve seen a bear wandering peacefully around the clean talus beneath El Cap, or a swift diving in and out of a crack, or hear peregrines screeching off the walls, that is about 1 million times more awesome than successfully hanging onto small holds on some dumb rock. I hope others would agree. We are configured for success on this one since the rangers are climbers, part of the tribe! If we have to make some sacrifices to achieve the park’s ecological goals that is fine by me!

One thing to consider is that you are forbidden from leaving the wilderness area, once your climbing permit starts. Based on what I saw during the three weeks I spent in the Valley in the spring, the result is that people are bivying lower on routes, rather than fixing and firing. Not necessarily a bad thing; I would rather be on El Cap myself. But the permit system is actually changing the way people are climbing walls. Also, if you need to come down to take care of something, you could find yourself running amuck of the rules. 

On the positive side, the climbing rangers will sell you the cheapest wag bags available. 

Since the pilot was billed as being empirical, it would be reasonable to ask for evidence that the permit system has had a positive effect on the ecosystem in the context of these public hearings. 

John Shultzwrote:

Since the pilot was billed as being empirical, it would be reasonable to ask for evidence that the permit system has had a positive effect on the ecosystem in the context of these public hearings. 

This is a good point.

Another consideration is that with the permit system during peak season at the gates on all entry to the park, the ability to enter during gated hours with a climbing permit is pretty sweet. This is a nice advantage May 15-Sept. 15th. And as Kevin said, you have the backcountry campground option for a night, though now they are working on that camp and the capacity is really limited. 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

I would counter that more parties are bivying lower on the routes because of the later start to the first day that the permits require. There’s a huge difference between starting your approach at 5am vs being in Yosemite village at 7:30 and starting your approach at 9 or 10am. Considering the increased heat for the approach during this time and the increased heat once you’re actually on the wall, it’s easy to think of the the first day pitch plan needing to be reduced by 2-5 pitches.

You can get your permit the day before it starts, if you are in the Valley. But I can follow your logic for weekenders. The result is the same, I guess. 

There was a rumor that there would be a printable permit available for parties who have already met with a climbing ranger at a previous point.. that would be a huge perk and would pretty much eliminate the biggest annoyance of the permit process..

The included camp site - eliminating the need to leave the park or bivy illegal is big positive.. 

if the permits limit crowds on routes and deter unqualified climbers from backing up trade routes that’s a plus too..