Yer gonna die myths

“Bivy sacks are dangerous because you can suffocate in your sleep”

Jeff Jwrote:

I've been climbing 20+ years and I've never used a grigri...and have no plans to start.  FFT

Why?  Just curious why you wouldn't use one?

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Why?  Just curious why you wouldn't use one?

I can't speak for Jeff, but I've been climbing just as long and with a similar aversion to using a grigri. For me, I don't see the need to spend the extra money, carry the extra weight, and learn the extra techniques just to do something that I can already do safely and efficiently. I'm okay that others have a preference for one, but I've seen enough random people at crags using a grigri poorly (hand completely off brake strand, holding the cam closed, too much slack and not paying any attention) that when a new partner insists on using one, I'm a little worried that they're going to be THAT person who's just relying on a device to make up for being a shitty belayer. That's not the grigri's fault of course, but I just don't see those bad practices nearly as much with tube device users, though I'm sure they're out there. I have taken to using a Mammut Smart lately for single pitch, which I find easier to use and just as good as a grigri, but I see it more as a convenience than anything else. 

Brandon Rwrote:

I can't speak for Jeff, but I've been climbing just as long and with a similar aversion to using a grigri. For me, I don't see the need to spend the extra money, carry the extra weight, and learn the extra techniques just to do something that I can already do safely and efficiently. I'm okay that others have a preference for one, but I've seen enough random people at crags using a grigri poorly (hand completely off brake strand, holding the cam closed, too much slack and not paying any attention) that when a new partner insists on using one, I'm a little worried that they're going to be THAT person who's just relying on a device to make up for being a shitty belayer. That's not the grigri's fault of course, but I just don't see those bad practices nearly as much with tube device users, though I'm sure they're out there. I have taken to using a Mammut Smart lately for single pitch, which I find easier to use and just as good as a grigri, but I see it more as a convenience than anything else. 

I have been climbing awhile also, started with body belay, then figure 8 and then ATC or tube device.  Each device got better but each has its negatives.  I was leery of the Grigri at first but have come to appreciate its benefits, especially when climbing in areas of loose rock.  If I am climbing with a partner who only has an ATC I give him my Grigri.  I would rather they totally let go of the brake strand on the Grigri than totally let go of the same on an ATC.  Obviously I don't want them to let go period but sometimes stuff happens like falling rock.  If my belayer gets pegged on the head and he's using an ATC there is a good chance both will end up hurt, that's not usually the case if using a Grigri.  a Grigri won't make up for bad belay technique but it sure adds an extra safety measure that a tube or ATC style can't.  I would also like my belayer to wear a helmet too but I am not going to draw a line in the sand there.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

I have been climbing awhile also, started with body belay, then figure 8 and then ATC or tube device.  Each device got better but each has its negatives.  I was leery of the Grigri at first but have come to appreciate its benefits, especially when climbing in areas of loose rock.  If I am climbing with a partner who only has an ATC I give him my Grigri.  I would rather they totally let go of the brake strand on the Grigri than totally let go of the same on an ATC.  Obviously I don't want them to let go period but sometimes stuff happens like falling rock.  If my belayer gets pegged on the head and he's using an ATC there is a good chance both will end up hurt, that's not usually the case if using a Grigri.  a Grigri won't make up for bad belay technique but it sure adds an extra safety measure that a tube or ATC style can't.  I would also like my belayer to wear a helmet too but I am not going to draw a line in the sand there.

If someone expects me to belay with a grigri, they're going to get lots of short ropes and an overall less safe belay because I rarely use one. I'd personally try to avoid loose rock and use a helmet before relying on a grigri, but I do acknowledge your point in that particular situation. I just don't think the pile of bodies is deep enough in this case to warrant removal from the YGD myth category though. 

I assume that everyone making the argument that we should all be using the latest in gear/safety tech is using the Grigri+, and not the less safe regular Grigri?

Well it isn't a myth, you are going to die at some point.

Brandon R wrote:

If someone expects me to belay with a grigri, they're going to get lots of short ropes and an overall less safe belay because I rarely use one. I'd personally try to avoid loose rock and use a helmet before relying on a grigri, but I do acknowledge your point in that particular situation. I just don't think the pile of bodies is deep enough in this case to warrant removal from the YGD myth category though. 

I assume that everyone making the argument that we should all be using the latest in gear/safety tech is using the Grigri+, and not the less safe regular Grigri?

Well I have grigri but I only use it when I want to lay down on a ledge and have the grigri hooked to the anchor above me. I know there are other ways to setup a belay device above you but it is the simplest. The only other time I use one is when rope soloing a climb.

Brandon Rwrote:

I assume that everyone making the argument that we should all be using the latest in gear/safety tech is using the Grigri+, and not the less safe regular Grigri?

Lol, Im still using the Grigri 1 so I guess my point is well, pointless.

my evolution of grigri use is probably similar to kevin mokracek, except i didn't start with a body belay. i went figure 8, stich plate, atc.  when the grigri came out i was very anti. i felt it would just lead to lazy belaying habits. my turning point was when some rando was belaying me (back when i climbed with randos...), and i ripped a block off and almost took him out. he inadvertently went hands free and admitted i would be crater meat if it wasn't for the grigri.

so i bought one.  around that time i learned about the nate beckwith memorial death mod, which was great because i had been rope soloing with clove hitches - which royally sucked.  i also learned that i could use my grigri as an ascender, or a backup to an ascender, or in fucked up lower out situations, or seamless transitions from simul-climbing to belaying.  it's a really versatile tool.

Brandon Rwrote:

I assume that everyone making the argument that we should all be using the latest in gear/safety tech is using the Grigri+, and not the less safe regular Grigri?

Nobody is making the argument that we should all be using the latest gear/safety tech.

I'm not necessarily taking a side in the "Grigris vs not Grigris" argument, but I'm definitely against oversimplifying nuanced conversations.

David Kwrote:

Nobody is making the argument that we should all be using the latest gear/safety tech.

I'm not necessarily taking a side in the "Grigris vs not Grigris" argument, but I'm definitely against oversimplifying nuanced conversations.

Oh, maybe not in this thread, but I've definitely heard/read it before. Maybe I should have said "anyone" rather than "everyone". 

And isn't oversimplifying nuanced conversations EXACTLY what this thread is about? I mean, we're calling things myths that aren't actually myths, and then berating people for recognizing and stating as much. 

Edit to respond to below: 

I agree, and I think if you review this thread, you'll see that I've mostly done just that. If I've deviated from being perfectly sincere, it's likely due to lack of patience with mansplaining the obvious, or the thread police who dictate how one is allowed to participate. Now, if you're done, how about we open this back up to on-topic discussion?

Brandon Rwrote:

Oh, maybe not in this thread, but I've definitely heard/read it before. Maybe I should have said "anyone" rather than "everyone". 

Perhaps, but even if someone literally says, "we should all be using the latest gear/safety tech", I think if you actually ask clarifying questions, you'll quickly discover that there's more nuance to what they actually believe. It's not great communication on their part, for sure, but communication isn't a one-person activity: as listeners we have some responsibility to try to understand people and not be pedants.

Of course, there's always the occasional crazy person who unironically believes insane things. But I'd guess those people are actually quite rare.

And isn't oversimplifying nuanced conversations EXACTLY what this thread is about? I mean, we're calling things myths that aren't actually myths, and then berating people for recognizing and stating as much. 

Eh, this thread is about what we make it about.

I'm personally taking this as being about commonly overstated or misunderstood dangers; practices that maybe aren't ideal, but carry less risk or less consequence than climbing media and culture might lead you to believe.

That doesn't have to be about berating people: it can be educational. I think there's a lot of value in being able to categorize and prioritize danger. This is certainly useful in trad climbing: there are often situations where none of the gear available is actually ideal, but having an idea of which problems are critical and which aren't allows you to choose the placement that is good enough to probably catch.

Um, sorry to hijack the thread.  Heh.

Ummm....here's one:  you're gonna die if you use a grigri.

There...back on topic.    

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

I have been climbing awhile also, started with body belay, then figure 8 and then ATC or tube device.  Each device got better but each has its negatives.  I was leery of the Grigri at first but have come to appreciate its benefits, especially when climbing in areas of loose rock.  If I am climbing with a partner who only has an ATC I give him my Grigri.  I would rather they totally let go of the brake strand on the Grigri than totally let go of the same on an ATC.  Obviously I don't want them to let go period but sometimes stuff happens like falling rock.  If my belayer gets pegged on the head and he's using an ATC there is a good chance both will end up hurt, that's not usually the case if using a Grigri.  a Grigri won't make up for bad belay technique but it sure adds an extra safety measure that a tube or ATC style can't.  I would also like my belayer to wear a helmet too but I am not going to draw a line in the sand there.

Is the belayer getting hit on the head and letting go of the rope also a myth? 

No, it isn’t a myth as I’m sure that it has happened, but how often? I’ve seen folks misusing a Grigri ( multiple times, multiple ways) but have never seen a belayer hit on the head and letting go of the rope. As said earlier in this thread, we are always making judgment calls—balancing possible risks against their likelihood of occurring, that is a basic aspect of our chosen obsession. If we wanted to be perfectly safe all the time, we wouldn’t climb, but even then…..

Alan Rubinwrote:

No, it isn’t a myth as I’m sure that it has happened, but how often? I’ve seen folks misusing a Grigri ( multiple times, multiple ways) but have never seen a belayer hit on the head and letting go of the rope. As said earlier in this thread, we are always making judgment calls—balancing possible risks against their likelihood of occurring, that is a basic aspect of our chosen obsession. If we wanted to be perfectly safe all the time, we wouldn’t climb, but even then…..

Welcome to life. Everything you do is a risk assessment. Getting in the car is a risk because you could die driving etc.

To those who don’t like the grigri, check out the ATC pilot. Works a lot more like an ATC and is just as secure as a grigri and way more simple. I have not died in my four years of using it. 

I stopped reading when people started taking a fun thread seriously around page 2 (in typical MP fashion), so sorry if this is redundant.

1. redundancy

Some people want a thread to be fun, some want it to be truly educational, like David. They can both coexist without nitpicking the other group. Probably half the posts in here only serve to be unnecessarily and unhelpfully critical of someone else's contribution, without offering anything funny or of substance of their own (in typical MP fashion). If you want it to be fun, then do something to make it fun. If you want it to be sincere, then add some sincere content. But logging on and whining about how others participate is the worst of both...

Now, for those who are on the sincere end of the spectrum, maybe we should establish a standard of evidence that informs our stances on these "myths". It can vary by individual, but should probably be consistent for that individual. Is it only based on your anecdotal experiences, what you've heard, or only from curated data? 

Brandon Rwrote:

Some people want a thread to be fun, some want it to be truly educational, like David. They can both coexist without nitpicking the other group. Probably half the posts in here only serve to be unnecessarily and unhelpfully critical of someone else's contribution, without offering anything funny or of substance of their own (in typical MP fashion). If you want it to be fun, then do something to make it fun. If you want it to be sincere, then add some sincere content. But logging on and whining about how others participate is the worst of both...

Now, for those who are on the sincere end of the spectrum, maybe we should establish a standard of evidence that informs our stances on these "myths". It can vary by individual, but should probably be consistent for that individual. Is it only based on your anecdotal experiences, what you've heard, or only from curated data? 

The grigri is perfectly safe as long as you don't sleep in the same room with it. I will eat your brain if you sleep in the same room!

John Smithwrote:

The grigri is perfectly safe as long as you don't sleep in the same room with it. I will eat your brain if you sleep in the same room!

Now that's the spirit! 

Now wait a minute. I slept with my grigri once last year and it didn’t eat my brain. Myth! Was into some kinky stuff tho..