When is it ok to swipe (claim) an FFA on a big alpine route? Asking for a friend...

But really, just stirring the pot :) 

See Alfrey's post from today, about EH/AB's "documentary." I put it in quotes b/c I'm honestly not sure what it's called when someone claims something that is up for debate they didn't actually do. I haven't climber very long, so I don't know how all this works, but it seems similar to someone running a 3:51 mile and claiming a national record, yet there being record of a guy running 3:49 two years before this. Everyone would look at the person claiming the record and go "huh?" (Austin's analogy is probably better than mine...see below). 

Sorta bewildered how a documentary would get made about an fake accomplishment that's arguably already been done... and def confused about how the participants in the doc would *not* be fighting tooth and nail w/ the producers of said doc to correct the record make certain that the details are clear and upfront. Anyway, this should be fun... ;)

https://www.instagram.com/p/CgcYfsQJaBP/ 

fwiw, I have friends/acquaintances on both sides, but genuinely curious about what's acceptable in the community.

(Original text edited for accuracy and fairness to the other side).

Emily Harrington commented: "Hey Dave. As I’ve said privately I’m so sorry for all the confusion. We are most definitely not trying to claim the FA from you guys. It’s very clearly shown in the film. The headlines are absolutely misleading and I’ve apologized and am getting it all fixed. The last one has been fixed for over a week now as you already know. I hope we can chat about this off social media" 

Sounds like they never claimed it as an FFA. Just a misleading statement made by the media, which I doubt the climbers have much control over anyways.

Did you look at the style the original ascent was done in? Each pitch was climbed by 1 person in the team (similar to how the Salathe was first done). Both the screenshoted articles have correct body text, but very debatable headlines.Though some people claim the style isn't a free ascent, it's pretty rare. According to Emily's comment the film itself doesn't make that claim.

Editors always fine a way to mess up headlines and titles. Yeah it should be fixed and maybe should have been prevented. But it's hard to judge from the post whether anybody was was actually negligent.

If you want a (bad) running example it's like a news article about somebody setting the 5km road record, but the headline says they ran the fastest 5000m.

Austin, fair enough, thanks for putting it in more familiar language for me, that's a reasonable approximation, I suppose. I think I just wonder if the protagonists of a doc actually have more sway and the ability to say "look, if you don't change this titling, then take our name off of it and cut the parts with us in it." Obviously that's pretty extreme but it seems like EH recognizes this problem (and claims to be working on it)... just seems odd to not demand that it be fixed before her and AB's names could be impugned for what might be editorial exaggeration. I hope that it genuinely is only an editorial issue.

As far as the actual FFA party, I would think that at least 2 of those members could have done a full, "every pitch" FFA if they had the rest of the team dedicated to their success. I feel the team aspect of their approach has it's own nobility, but I won't begrudge someone who has the resources to make a big ascent like that happen. To be fair to doc participants, I can see the argument about DA airing dirty laundry, but can also understand frustration from an 8-9yr project finally coming to fruition, then seeing someone else recognized for it. Everyone reads the headlines, nobody reads the article, so that's why libel can be won off of headlines, even if the article states things correctly.

What bothers me is the wording of EH’s reply to DA: “The last one has been fixed for over a week now, as you already know.”

Clearly this has been discussed by both parties behind the scenes for at least a week now. There’s been a week for either EH or AB to step up and publicly clarify the situation to their 417k followers. Instead, they’ve opted for private apologies and gaslighting DA for not handling this “off social media.” How either of them could ever think that a private apology would suffice, while they receive public applause and loads of $$$, is just baffling to me. People airing their dirty laundry for the whole world to see is generally faux pas, sure, but the sentiment of handling things offline is meaningless when the entire situation preceding it has been quite public.

Sadly though, not surprising. Didn’t you guys get the memo? Climbing isn’t actually about climbing anymore! It’s about money, fame, and keeping your sponsors’ dicks wet happy :) Now everyone, get on your knees and thank TNF properly for another shitty climbing film!

Re: the style either parties completed their respective ascents in—jury is still out, but NB’s response to CH on the post is certainly thought-provoking.

man, that sucks. huge bummer to see one of those behind-the-scenes grinders that does something awesome get ignored in favor of one of the more 'marketable' athletes.

Isn’t this the 2nd EH ascent to get significant publicity largely off a favorable misunderstanding of the notability? (The golden gate send and its “First Female Free Ascent of El Cap in a day” headlines being the first)

So, as the film has not yet been released, we are all speculating and piling on a pregnant woman who probably doesn’t need this stress in her life right now (at least until the film is released and it exonerates/damns her) 

Nothing but a bunch of damn mouth masturbation for a gram feed. EH and AB deserved to be called out as their ascent is nothing of note other than being late (third).

Edit to add: originally wrote second but the route was repeated right afterwards:

So we were delighted to hear a few weeks after leaving the valley that a French party, our neighbors in base camp, had repeated the line and said it was one of the best routes they had ever done, with inspiring free climbing.

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201215519

Whhhhoooooooooooo fucking cares

Adrian Ballinger commented on that thread that they were embargoed until the release— so they are limited in what they can say publicly, for the time being, but it sounds like they are trying to correct everything. Of course I don’t know any of these people personally but I find it hard to imagine Harrington and Ballinger deliberately trying to take false credit for the first ascent. Still the incorrect publicity sucks and I understand Alfrey’s anger. Seems like a shame all around.

John Clarkwrote:

So, as the film has not yet been released, we are all speculating and piling on a pregnant woman who probably doesn’t need this stress in her life right now (at least until the film is released and it exonerates/damns her) 

Guys, guys, lay off, don't you understand? SHE'S THE VICTIM HERE!!!

Honestly surprised it took this long for someone to play this card, at least in todays day and age...

Last I checked, when you invite a film crew from a major company (a company that is certainly going to pay you a sum of money), you've a responsibility to ensure that they report the facts of your accomplishment correctly. I see little difference between what the 1st ascent team did and the 2nd ascent team. Each of the teams had members that led some of the pitches, but not all. Each of the teams had zero members that led every single pitch. fyi, i'd love to know how it's "speculating" when she went on DA's post and confirmed that the headlines are inaccurate (to be diplomatic) and that she was well aware of the misrepresentations.

@Seth, I'd love to go with that line of thought but what is the penalty for EH/AB if "they talk about it"??? Money, right? That is the crux of this, that they were willing to NOT stand up and say "hey, this isn't right and we're not going to let you put our name on it unless you state it clearly and correctly. It seems they chose not to, so as to not lose money. I think that is what is gnawing at some of the FFA party, putting money ahead of being 100% forthright, in all aspects.

edit: for the poster below, being genuinely curious about the ethics and stirring the pot are not mutually exclusive, not sure if that should be a newsflash or not... meant exactly what I said, was I unclear? What's intellectually dishonest bullshit is throwing the victim card in defense of unbecoming behavior, that's what's harming society as much as anything nowadays.

Christian Heschwrote:

fwiw, I have friends/acquaintances on both sides, but genuinely curious about what's acceptable in the community.

…..

Guys, guys, lay off, don't you understand? SHE'S THE VICTIM HERE!!!

Honestly surprised it took this long for someone to play this card, at least in todays day and age...

Ah, a real “both sides” guy I see. Neutral observer, just stirring the pot…

I don’t know enough to have an opinion on the issue at hand, but I do know this sort of intellectual dishonesty is bullshit and one of the worst things on the internet. Grow up and just say what you mean. 

It’s always best to air all dirty laundry in public before you talk to the actual people involved.  It just works best that way. 

Christian Heschwrote:

Guys, guys, lay off, don't you understand? SHE'S THE VICTIM HERE!!!

Honestly surprised it took this long for someone to play this card, at least in todays day and age...

Last I checked, when you invite a film crew from a major company (a company that is certainly going to pay you a sum of money), you've a responsibility to ensure that they report the facts of your accomplishment correctly. I see little difference between what the 1st ascent team did and the 2nd ascent team. Each of the teams had members that led some of the pitches, but not all. Each of the teams had zero members that led every single pitch. fyi, i'd love to know how it's "speculating" when she went on DA's post and confirmed that the headlines are inaccurate (to be diplomatic) and that she was well aware of the misrepresentations.

@Seth, I'd love to go with that line of thought but what is the penalty for EH/AB if "they talk about it"??? Money, right? That is the crux of this, that they were willing to NOT stand up and say "hey, this isn't right and we're not going to let you put our name on it unless you state it clearly and correctly. It seems they chose not to, so as to not lose money. I think that is what is gnawing at some of the FFA party, putting money ahead of being 100% forthright, in all aspects.

edit: for the poster below, being genuinely curious about the ethics and stirring the pot are not mutually exclusive, not sure if that should be a newsflash or not... meant exactly what I said, was I unclear? What's intellectually dishonest bullshit is throwing the victim card in defense of unbecoming behavior, that's what's harming society as much as anything nowadays.

You may have missed the Exonerates OR Damns part of my comment. But thanks for stirring the pot on an issue where both sides aren’t fully public yet. Guess you’ll have to fork over your money to HBO and EH/AB to have a leg to stand on though, ironic ain’t it. FWIW if they do claim a FFA I would call foul unless she personally led and sent all the pitches, whereas it seems the original style was a team free effort. Sorta like Piana/Skinner and Jim Herson on the salathe. Nobody is taking the FFA away from the first, but nobody can deny the improvement in style.

but anyways, as said above Whooooooooooooooo (the fuck) cares

John Clarkwrote:

 Nobody is taking the FFA away from the first, but nobody can deny the improvement in style.

Was it an improvement in style or just a different style? Each person leading a pitch is minutia when there was nothing else significant. Claiming a first for such minutia is all about the gram feed. I have now said for decades that when someone does the first unsupported nude snowboard circumnavigation of the South Pole while singing God Save the Queen, I will take notice. Until then it is a bunch of mouth masturbation.

Edit to add. From Teton Gravity News

Starting with an Alaskan winter ski and snowboard expedition, reaching the heights of a first individual free climb in Kyrgyzstan, hunting for the world’s next best big wave surfing spot off the coast of Africa, and exploring the depths of the Ecuadorian jungle on kayaks, each team will face their own unique mystifying challenges along each journey.

Note the first individual bit. Then note the other three "expeditions." No spin to any of them. It should have been reaching the heights of a free climb in Kyrgyzstan.

Later in the details the first two note a first. Then details of Pik Slesova:

Climbers Emily Harrington and Adrian Ballinger travel to Kyrgyzstan’s Ak-Su Valley to attempt a route on Pik Slesova that has never been successfully free climbed by any one person.

That is minutia spin that unless one is a climber that follows very closely, one will not immediately understand. Further, one has to ask were did that that minutia come from? The climbers? the producers? Probably from both. Which shows how caught up they all are in the mouth masturbation.

Finally want to watch a real Kyrgyzstan adventure watch Road from Karakol. Kyle Dempster absolutely nails what it is about.

Jamie is a dirtbagwrote:

What bothers me is the wording of EH’s reply to DA: “The last one has been fixed for over a week now, as you already know.”

Clearly this has been discussed by both parties behind the scenes for at least a week now. There’s been a week for either EH or AB to step up and publicly clarify the situation to their 417k followers. Instead, they’ve opted for private apologies and gaslighting DA for not handling this “off social media.” How either of them could ever think that a private apology would suffice, while they receive public applause and loads of $$$, is just baffling to me. People airing their dirty laundry for the whole world to see is generally faux pas, sure, but the sentiment of handling things offline is meaningless when the entire situation preceding it has been quite public.

Sadly though, not surprising. Didn’t you guys get the memo? Climbing isn’t actually about climbing anymore! It’s about money, fame, and keeping your sponsors’ dicks wet happy :) Now everyone, get on your knees and thank TNF properly for another shitty climbing film!

Re: the style either parties completed their respective ascents in—jury is still out, but NB’s response to CH on the post is certainly thought-provoking.

Emily and Adrian are most likely under contract and are unable to say anything publicly until the episode airs. Kinda puts them in a weird pickle. I think you are reading way too much into this and making too many assumptions.

As for your third statement, yea, if you are going to make a living from climbing you usually should try to make your managers happy, same with any job. Otherwise your means to live suddenly go away, and as someone who has lost their job before it really isn't that fun to be suddenly unemployed.

John Clarkwrote:

 FWIW if they do claim a FFA I would call foul unless she personally led and sent all the pitches....but nobody can deny the improvement in style.

then go ahead and call foul b/c it's not been disputed that she did *not* lead every pitch, in her own words. Neither did her partner. 

on style, is it an improvement in style or simply a big ticket sponsor whose resource allocation allowed a smaller team to get up there with less workload and the opportunity to focus more on climbing than logistics? 

@T Dz, what is the penalty for speaking about the docu before it comes out? Monetary. Thus, money is prioritized over clarity about the ascent style. That is disappointing.

Christian Heschwrote:

then go ahead and call foul b/c it's not been disputed that she did *not* lead every pitch, in her own words. Neither did her partner. 

on style, is it an improvement in style or simply a big ticket sponsor whose resource allocation allowed a smaller team to get up there with less workload and the opportunity to focus more on climbing than logistics? 

@T Dz, what is the penalty for speaking about the docu before it comes out? Monetary. Thus, money is prioritized over clarity about the ascent style. That is disappointing.

Both Adrian and Emily have mentioned they will make statements to clarify when the episode comes out... Which is today or tomorrow. Seems like an easy choice to have a win-win situation where they can do the right thing and also eat their dessert. Not really that disappointing, and I find it pretty understandable lol.

I guess we will see if they follow through though. I think it's best to hang tight and wait to see what their response is.

Nobody is taking the FFA away from the first, but nobody can deny the improvement in style.

You cannot compare the style of first ascents with subsequent repeats. That's like comparing pioneering the exploration into the West and the subsequent parties following their wagon trails with a map and detailed instructions in hand. 

It was an impressive ascent but left me thinking that  they should have thanked the FA team for cleaning and bolting the climb and establishing bolted belay stations.  
there was a brief photo of the FA team but little to no mention of the enormous work to equip the route in the first place