Gym route setting question

If you have experience with gym route setting, 

1. What do you think is an average time it takes an average gym routesetter to set a boulder problem? We are talking just a regular run-of-the-mill everyday gym setting. Not a world-cup competition setting by internationally-certified setters. But feel free to throw that in also, if you have that experience first hand.

2. What is an expected average time to set a roped climb? How much would this time differ on, say, 40 ft wall vs 60 ft wall? How different would this time be if you are setting a TR route vs lead-only? (Meaning setting on a vertical/gently-overhanging wall where the rope is already hanging, vs setting on a severely overhanging wall where you first need to get the rope up, and also need some tricks to stay close to the wall while setting.)  

(as a background, I’m asking this because of a recent discussion in which I encountered something I consider to be wildly unrealistic. Don’t want to give it away/prejudice the discussion, but I want to know if it is my view that is off-base, or the other way around)

1. Depends how inspired you are. If the creative process flows really well and the moves work from the get go, I’d say no more than an hour per boulder. If lots of tweaking is required and things just aren’t feeling good that day, it could take a couple hours.

2. Also depends. The biggest challenge is just the rope work and keeping yourself on the wall/in the right positions. I’d say a 50ft route maybe takes 4-7 hours to complete with care. 

I can set two ~35 foot routes in 1.5-2 hrs start to finish if my brain works that day if that helps

Alex Cwrote:

I can set two ~35 foot routes in 1.5-2 hrs start to finish if my brain works that day if that helps

What do you mean “ from start to finish”? Does this include forerunning, or setup/clean-up? And I’m assuming you mean two routes on the same rope, to maximize efficiency?

One thing that always seems to happen is spending 3 hours setting a sick boulder and 15 minutes on a ‘whatever’ boulder when I ask peoples opinions inevitably the 3 hr boulder is ‘meh’ and the 15 minute boulder is aMaZiNg!

So 15 minutes (if all the shite is there on the mats) to 3 hours. 

Some gyms use aerial work platforms instead of ropes to set routes, but setters have to drive them in/stash the mats etc so this doesnt always save time compared to the ‘old fashioned’ way. But I mean, at least 4+ hrs (via rope) for 1 proper route on 50-60’ walls from wagon-ing the holds to the base, leading and/or jugging, setting, forerunning, and wagoning the leftover detritus back to the back? 

Also difficulty can affect the time- harder routes require more precision thinking and tweaking. A lot of the time a 5.easy jughaul is just shotgunning bucket holds on and a 5.hard is more…beta sensitive. +1 to creative juices flowing, some days it just takes longer because you cant come up with anything ‘thought provoking’ or whatever. Other factors are other routes nearby/in the same line, sometimes you get hosed by the other routes and have to move something and it dominos to your other moves etc.

Length doesn't seem to make a significant time difference, its the other little things that stack up. Steep routes are definitely more tiring and take longer.

i’m answering under the assumption that the wall is already stripped/has space for another route..

Do we get to find out what the unrealistic expectation is?!

Lena chitawrote:

What do you mean “ from start to finish”? Does this include forerunning, or setup/clean-up? And I’m assuming you mean two routes on the same rope, to maximize efficiency?

Like clock started when I grab hoods and also set up a rope. And yea setting both on the the same rope. Also this isn’t including stripping as it’s often done by wall tech. 

I want all the setters here to disclose their height and ape index.  

Lena chitawrote:

If you have experience with gym route setting, 

2. What is an expected average time to set a roped climb? How much would this time differ on, say, 40 ft wall vs 60 ft wall? How different would this time be if you are setting a TR route vs lead-only? (Meaning setting on a vertical/gently-overhanging wall where the rope is already hanging, vs setting on a severely overhanging wall where you first need to get the rope up, and also need some tricks to stay close to the wall while setting.)  

Depends on some factors you mentioned, ime:

• Using a lift or roped up? With equal competence for both, much faster to use a lift if possible. Less of a factor on slab/face. Much of a factor on steeper stuff. With a lift, you don't need to bring up your holds & screw buckets. Much easier to go up yourself. Downside being you can't really try out the moves. I think setting roped leads to better & more consistent routes on average. Really good setters can still do good stuff on a lift too. Main issue with a lift ends up being broken sequences that the setter didn't try, or much harder than expected sequences for the grade. Or bad flow (e.g. feels like the route has been set in somewhat un-connected chunks, which it kinda has).
• Depends a bit on the holds you have at your disposal too. Where I used to set, holds sets were often fairly limited and/or older holds. Sometimes needed creativity to make it work.
• Depends if you count taking down the route or not.
• Difficulty of expected route - ime, it's easiest to set a bit below your onsight grade and easier. Easier doesn't necessarily mean faster, for an equivalent quality route. I mean anyone can rapid-fire a bunch of buckets up a route for a generic ladder. But if one takes time to build engaging sequences at the grade (say 5.8, or 5.9), I don't find it all that much faster.

I typically did 1 route in ~3hours, including takedown, doing everything roped up, on ~50ft. A tad less for slabby/vertical (2-2.5hrs), maybe a bit more for the most overhanging stuff (3, 3.5hrs). At some point though one kind needs a lift (or just really be willing to waste your time). I don't think I was especially fast (occasional set mostly for fun, like once a week). I was setting for fun, I thought the creative process was interesting. So wasn't particularly concerned about speed (and I was told they were OK with me setting this way, as long as each time I worked I'd finish one). I'm sure if the goal had been speed, I could have fired the same routes in say 1-2 hours.

IME it doesn't really matter, time-wise, if you're setting for lead and/or TR. There are additional considerations (e.g. safe clips, especially first few draws). But it doesn't really add time.

Math Bertwrote:

I want all the setters here to disclose their height and ape index.  

Haha - somewhat unrelated to OP. But really, this shouldn't matter. A good route setter should always set for different morphology. I guess being an average height/index guy it's easy to say. But still.

I'm 6'3 with a 6'7 wingspan, and I only set dynos and monster deapoints. come at me, bro!

Noodle Dudewrote:

One thing that always seems to happen is spending 3 hours setting a sick boulder and 15 minutes on a ‘whatever’ boulder when I ask peoples opinions inevitably the 3 hr boulder is ‘meh’ and the 15 minute boulder is aMaZiNg!

So 15 minutes (if all the shite is there on the mats) to 3 hours. 

Ha! Yes, it’s funny how sometimes you throw the holes on the wall, and it works out perfectly, and sometimes you have this cool idea in kind, and you try to force the the sequence, tweaking, and changing, and finally get it, only to realize that it’s nowhere near as cool as you thought it would be.

Some gyms use aerial work platforms instead of ropes to set routes, but setters have to drive them in/stash the mats etc so this doesnt always save time compared to the ‘old fashioned’ way. But I mean, at least 4+ hrs (via rope) for 1 proper route on 50-60’ walls from wagon-ing the holds to the base, leading and/or jugging, setting, forerunning, and wagoning the leftover detritus back to the back? 

Also difficulty can affect the time- harder routes require more precision thinking and tweaking. A lot of the time a 5.easy jughaul is just shotgunning bucket holds on and a 5.hard is more…beta sensitive. +1 to creative juices flowing, some days it just takes longer because you cant come up with anything ‘thought provoking’ or whatever. Other factors are other routes nearby/in the same line, sometimes you get hosed by the other routes and have to move something and it dominos to your other moves etc.

Length doesn't seem to make a significant time difference, its the other little things that stack up. Steep routes are definitely more tiring and take longer.

i’m answering under the assumption that the wall is already stripped/has space for another route..

Do we get to find out what the unrealistic expectation is?!

The expectation was <1 hr to completely set a roped climb. 50-55 ft tall walls. Hauling buckets on ropes, nothing but a gri-gri. Not even ascender. No allowance for steepness.

Lena chitawrote:

The expectation was <1 hr to completely set a roped climb. 50-55 ft tall walls. Hauling buckets on ropes, nothing but a gri-gri. Not even ascender. No allowance for steepness.

In those conditions, I'd say, it's probably possible, if you don't take down & optimize for speed. E.g. you vomit holds on the wall & hope it makes sense. I'd be surprised if that constantly led to quality routes. Most likely unremarkable, sometimes awkward, left-right clip ups.

Franck Veewrote:

In those conditions, I'd say, it's probably possible, if you don't take down & optimize for speed. E.g. you vomit holds on the wall & hope it makes sense. I'd be surprised if that constantly led to quality routes. Most likely unremarkable, sometimes awkward, left-right clip ups.

Yes, that was my thought, too.