Pets at the Crag - Thoughts/Storytime/Discussion

TLDR; Should pets be allowed at the crag? Plot twist, I have a crag cat.

Throwaway account for my own safety and privacy. 

[original, extremely long post deleted]

Carry a machete.

I didn't even read the first message. I have always had a strong opinion on this. I am a dog nut, I have a dog. Absolutely no dogs at the crag, period. Let it be written, let it be done. It's just damned inconsiderate and not good for anyone. 

I dunno what people called them in other parts of the country, but I remember there being a thing called yard-dogs. Yard-dogs were like house-dogs or working-dogs in appearance, but only a fool would have mistaken them. Yard-dogs were poorly- or un-trained dogs. One big difference was that if you were at a neighbor's house you would never strike a house-dog or a working-dog. But you were likely to be in a rough spot if you refused to hit a yard-dog.

I feel like in the decades that followed, lots of folks have taken to calling their yard-dogs house-dogs. We just don't have time to fully interact with and train a dog anymore. We leave a dog alone of 8 hours on end and want to think it's the same as an actually trained dog of years past. It's never going to happen that way. It sounds to me like you ran into some yard-dogs that their owners insisted were house-dogs.

To my mind it comes down to the whole Americana thing of wanting to live a modern life while still pretending to be a cowboy. It's cute, but not realistic. Human habits change faster than canine biology. Most "well-trained" dogs are not. Who knows, maybe the work-from-home revolution will change this. But at the moment, you are right; crags are saturated with poorly-trained dogs that their owners are too vain to acknowledge are poorly-trained. The fact that a well trained dog is always welcome at a crag has run into the mythology that you can work in an office and train a dog well. This has made the crag a dangerous place for rope ends and sandwiches, and a deadly place for cats.

Oh boy, did I read we're now talking about "trained" dogs?    I consider a trained dog a dog that will mind off leash any command no matter how many distractions are around. So, to me, there are very few trained dogs in the world. Maybe 1 in 50,000. The one thing that is certain is that your (second person plural) dog is not that one.

You need a bigger cat - a lot bigger!

Bb Cc wrote:

No pets, not even furries.

Do you even Yiff, bro?

"Crag Cat"  I actually read that whole post, damn it was long.  Almost didn't get through it...

I think you and the owner of the dogs both had some shared blame.  

The blame for the initial incident falls on the dog owners.  It shouldn't matter if your pet was a cat, a small dog, a child, etc.  It could have, just as easily, been a wild squirrel, rabbit, or whatever.  Those dogs were obviously not well trained enough to be out at a crag, and especially, off leash.  I'm willing to bet, that wasn't the first issue those folks had with their dogs.  That's on them for not being realistic about where those dogs are at in their training.  Those dogs should have stayed home.

You however, should have been more agreeable when the woman said she was leaving, and taken your cat around the corner.  That couple should not have brought their dogs at all, but now that they're there, you have to work with them.  She did her part by coming down and letting you know they were packing up and would be coming down the trail soon.  The absolute wrong response was, "We're going to climb one more route.  Why don't you wait another 30 minutes before you leave."  It's not up to her to wait on you.  As two pet owners you should be working together to keep both of  your pets safe.  If you were concerned for your cat's safety, that should have taken precedence over getting in one last climb.  The woman's request for you to take your cat around the corner was completely reasonable, and it was a d!ck move to not comply with it.

As far as the whole crag dog/pet issue goes, I generally think it's a bad idea to bring a pet at all.  I wish it were different.  Maybe 15, 10, even 5 years ago, crags were not nearly as crowded as they are now.  Unfortunately, as crags become more crowded, there's just less space for your pet, and more opportunity for them to get into trouble.  Same goes for young kids.  I'll give it to some dog owners and parents, some of you are exceptionally attentive.  You do everything right, and the crag is a better place for you.  However, that is the exception, and unfortunately, not the rule. 

JonasMR wrote:

We just don't have time to fully interact with and train a dog anymore. We leave a dog alone of 8 hours on end and want to think it's the same as an actually trained dog of years past. It's never going to happen that way.... To my mind it comes down to the whole Americana thing of wanting to live a modern life while still pretending to be a cowboy. It's cute, but not realistic. Human habits change faster than canine biology. Most "well-trained" dogs are not. .... The fact that a well trained dog is always welcome at a crag has run into the mythology that you can work in an office and train a dog well. 

This gets right to the heart of the matter, to me. The majority of modern Americans live a lifestyle that is utterly incompatible with dog ownership. Yet many still insist on having dog - big energetic dogs at that - which leads to all kinds of trouble.

I like dogs, but would never consider owning one with my current lifestyle (city, apartment, job, climbing trips). 

Popular crags shouldn't have kids or pets.  Everyone thinks their pet and kid are well trained truth is they don't have fully functioning brains.

My cat is leash trained and absolutely loves being outside, so we've brought him out cragging a handful of times. We've never brought him to a crag without scoping the dog situation first though. In all cases, we've made sure there are either no dogs or dogs we already know. Once some surprise dogs showed up, so I picked up the cat and went elsewhere, just in case. Our rationale is 'when in Rome, do as the Romans do' or in this case, 'when at the crag, do as the craggers do.' I'm a cat person but 99% of crag animals are dogs so we know that we're the foreigners and need to adapt. 

Letting dog owners run the show is not necessarily fair but the world isn't a fair place. And it's just not a hill I'm willing to let my cat die on. If I had a vote, I'd say no crag animals at all--I've been attacked by a dog unprovoked and have a handful of friends with similar stories. In every case, the owner of the attacking dog said: "He's never done that before! He's a good dog!"   

I like pets at the crag, but I am dumbfounded that so many dog owners let their dogs off leash when they clearly can not respond to commands when distracted. 

I had a dog who would not follow commands when overly excited by deer, rabbits and such. That dog stayed on a leash, pretty damn simple. 

jbak x wrote:

Carry a machete.

Honestly, that dog would have gotten tased if it was my cat in its mouth.

I agree with what most people have said so far. Some say never bring pets, some say there are few exceptions and I'm a little torn between these. I would never bring my dogs because they suck. But I met the goodest boy at the crag yesterday. Content to lay down and chill and listen to it's owners. It sucks that some people have to ruin it for others.

Edit: @Jordan. Neither do the dogs.

@Jordan. I think we're in agreement. I just don't understand how the cat is any different from a smaller dog or child or whatever these people's dogs might go after. Also, I don't even have a cat but I do have a small dog that big dogs have bitten.

Padawan Yoda wrote:

 Edit @ Yoda agreed leave them both, but take responsibility you put your cat in that position.  If you've been to a popular crag more then once you know that wanna be dirtbaggers bring their "well trained" dogs. Its a sad reality but a reality your cat who doesn't care to be there doesn't need to be apart of. 

@ Yoda we are in agreement I own a cat, dog, and have kids.  I know which spots are guaranteed to have to have shitty dog owners and I don't take my kids there and I always leave my pets at home. Which sucks it would be awesome to have kids at Joes valley but the 80 dogs I run into at the man size boulder isn't worth it.  That said a little research and you can go to places where you can report bad dog owners to the authorities. 

Crag Cat wrote:

Discussion & Opinions—

TLDR; Anyone should have the privilege of enjoying a public space with their well-behaved pets, given that the space is suitable for pets and that the owner has full control over their pets. Pets should include dogs, cats, rabbits, potbelly pigs, goats, snakes, etc. However in reality, crags are not suitable for my pet and the time we enjoy outside together will have to look different moving forward. I am still formulating my solid opinion and am open to criticism. I am also interested to hearing opinions from all perspectives regarding “pets at the crag.” I still have a lot to learn and I hope other pet owners can take something away from this too. 

I still feel the same, in which I believe that anyone should have the privilege of enjoying a public space with their well-behaved pets, given that the space is suitable for pets and that the owner has full control over their pets. Pets should include dogs, cats, rabbits, potbelly pigs, goats, snakes, etc. as long as they are well-behaved and the owner is able to control them and they are not disruptive to other humans and animals (domestic or wild) also enjoying the space.

But after this instance, I have to question if crags in general are actually suitable for pets, especially my pet. 

In a perfect world, only well-behaved, non-disruptive pets would be present. And only in casual, low-key climbing areas (low potential for rock fall, single-pitch or bouldering, lower presence of wildlife). Also in a perfect world, pet owners would be responsible, considerate, and pick up their pet’s poo. 

But after literally meeting the epitome of the stereotypical incompetent, irresponsible, entitled dog owner, I have to understand that there are many owners that do not have well-behaved pets and do not have full control over them, but still feel entitled to let them roam free in public spaces regardless. They are not only putting others at risk, but also their innocent pets at risk for being euthanized should anything ever escalate to that degree. 

Like many others, I really enjoy spending time with my pet and he enjoys being outside. But the reality is, me bringing him to the crag is selfish. He can still enjoy being outside, but it doesn’t have to be at the crag. Even though I may think that he is chill and non-disruptive, the reality is that he is the minority and there will be dogs and sometimes dogs with terrible owners, which will be disruptive and dangerous. I don’t want this situation to happen again, so time outside with my pet will have to look different and for now, he will not be accompanying me to the crag anymore. 

At the end of the day, being out at the crag should be about climbing and I shouldn’t have my attention divided in any way. It’s not the end of the world and this has been an eye-opening experience for me in many ways. I have enough humility to take accountability and to try to make better decisions moving forward. 

I’m open to criticism of my own actions and opinions. I am still trying to formulate my solid opinion and am curious to hear each person’s perspective on the situation or just having pets at the crag in general. Whether you are a hard no, a full yes, or somewhere in between. Would especially love to hear from other crag cat owners.

The intention of this post was more for discussion, but also obviously a bit of ranting/venting. I also hope that all pet owners can take something away from this. 

Thanks for reading.

All you have to say is “Your dogs behavior issues are not my problem. Figure it out.”

I’ve had a couple dogs try and attack my dog as we hike past and I certainly think it’s ok to “forcefully separate the dogs” 

if you have the crag animal thing figured out, good on you, but unfortunately a lot of people don’t. And you’ll have to end up dealing with it

First, you have repeated yourself multiple times unnecessarily. You could trim probably 20% off your text, more people may read it.

I feel the dog owners were totally at fault. When they were about to leave, if I was reading correctly, it sounded like your cat was tucked away somewhere where it would be safe from the dogs. If that is the case, the dog owners should have to control their dogs on the way out, and feel extra shitty about it. Maybe it would teach them just how badly they have failed to train them.

Joe Hunt wrote:

I consider a trained dog a dog that will mind off leash any command no matter how many distractions are around. So, to me, there are very few trained dogs in the world. Maybe 1 in 50,000. The one thing that is certain is that your (second person plural) dog is not that one.

As someone who has taken their dog through proper training, and speaking only of "trained" dogs, nearly all properly trained dogs should be able to come on recall, regardless of distractions....that is the very definition of a "trained" dog in my eyes. Even in such scenarios, my "1 in 50,000" dog is on a leash 90% of the time I am sport climbing, and only off leash when I am taking a break and not focused on climbing/belaying. 

With that said, I agree there is a large contingency of dog owners who think their dog is "trained" because it comes when called on an empty trail, but is unable to heel or come in the presence of a cat, squirrel, or even other dog....unfortunately, like everything else, it tends to be the minority that ruin it for everyone. I would say 1 in probably 15 dogs at the crag fall into this category on any given day....not 1 in 50,000 lol

In this particular scenario my initial thoughts are this:

a.) cat was leashed and dogs were not, which by default makes it mostly the dog owners fault in my opinion, even if the story seems a bit embellished

b.) there is no way that this was not a distraction to the belayers and climbers in the area, and am glad things didn't end up worse for the climber as cat crag was belaying them (if I read that correctly)

I started a thread in northeast forum about a week ago. Three unleashed dogs came after me. The lead dog touched my hand with its teeth.  I like dogs but if they are out of control they should stay home.  I don't think it   is fair  to your cat when there are so many out of control  dogs with entitled humans on the loose.

At least it’s a throw away account. For a sec I thought I was gonna have to fight someone. 

My friend just got bit out at Patricia Bowl last weekend. Luckily it wasn’t bad. Please leave your dog at home, especially if they are unfriendly. If I had a nickel for every time I’ve heard “they’ve never done that before” I’d be a rich man.