What is "World Class"?

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Except the second someone disagrees with you on MP they will leverage your list against you and say you don't know "world class" climbing. People constantly tell me I haven't travelled enough and I have climbed in 20+ states. 

I think in most cases "world class" is used as a form of projection. 

Well, there’s your problem. You traveled within the States. Although North America has plenty of “world class” trad climbing, it is sorely limited in sport. As a matter of fact, the only “world class” sport climbing in the US in my opinion would be RRG, Smith and maybe NRG and Rifle…that’s it. 

Frank Steinwrote:

Well, there’s your problem. You traveled within the States. Although North America has plenty of “world class” trad climbing, it is sorely limited in sport. As a matter of fact, the only “world class” sport climbing in the US in my opinion would be RRG, Smith and maybe NRG and Rifle…that’s it. 

You just made my point so thanks! Your extrapolating about me on incomplete information, I just went to Italy. 

It does not matter how much one climbs, someone always claims more knowledge more experience. On the contrary how can someone know what is world class without climbing out North/South America, Europe, Asia, Africa? Have you even climbed at every crag in your state, to know what is best in the state? How can someone not know what is best in their state, best in their country, best in their continent but somehow know what world class is?

People don't know the quality of climbing until they have climbed it.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Have you even climbed at every crag in your state, to know what is best in the state? 

Yes, and none of it is a “world class crag” or even a “destination crag.”

Frank Steinwrote:

Yes, and none of it is a “world class crag” or even a “destination crag.”

Do you know what is best in the country (have you climbed at the 50 most popular crags?) ? Or what is best in North America?

Edit: Out of comments I am confused, how can climbing at four crags mean you have world class expertise?

For sport climbing? Subjectively yes, I named them earlier. 

I've just added 22 areas in the US to my list of places to never visit. Thanks all for the input!

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Except the second someone disagrees with you on MP they will leverage your list against you and say you don't know "world class" climbing. People constantly tell me I haven't travelled enough and I have climbed in 20+ states. 

I think in most cases "world class" is used as a form of projection. 

Projecting yourself as well travelled, humble brag comes to fruition!

In america my first thoughts are the new, the red, red rock, yosemite, and the gunks? Idk my list is probably totally filled with biases and ignorance

Dylan Hwrote:

In america my first thoughts are the new, the red, red rock, yosemite, and the gunks? Idk my list is probably totally filled with biases and ignorance

Good list, maybe add a few gyms to it?

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I am not saying the red is or is not world class. I am simply saying going to the Red does not make you an expert on what should or should not be world class. 

Who said anybody suggesting the red makes you an expert? You said that recommending the red was a horrible suggestion. I replied with why it was a valid suggestion.

Yes you shouldn't make statements about climbing areas you haven't experienced.

Agree to an extent, however, when an area like Yosemite or Indian Creek (or Verdon or Grampians) have been established as world class by so many others, it is safe to call those locations as world class by proxy. 

The flaming comes out!

What flaming? You said to call something world class you have to been to so many states, locations, blah blah blah…so now then when I point out your own lack of climbing experience you get upset?  Interesting

 I have climbed in 24 states! 

Calm down Trevstar. Let’s not make this another one of your pissing contests. Out of all of those 24 states how much time did you spend at actual established, large, good areas. Climbing choss in Indiana doesn’t exactly hold the same weight as climbing at Smith or Rumney. Sorry I struck that nerve again

What statements can you make about climbing in Africa/Asia/South America overall? 

Having climbing in Rocklands and a few Asian crags I can make some statements, but you don’t see me doing that do you? They are both irrelevant to this conversation.

If you are going to be the gate keeper on what is world class, how many places do you need to climb? What is your criteria?

I’m not a gatekeeper, I’m fact I’m quite the opposite. I’m advocating for world class crags and you are adamantly arguing that they don’t exist. You continuously fail to acknowledge that it is not individual opinions that determine if something is world class. You or I don’t get to determine these things. Climbing is great in many regards because many things are determined collectively. 

The only thing you or I know about a climbing areas quality is the relative quality to another area we have climbed in.

Again not true, see my argument regarding Yosemite, Indian Creek, Verdon, Siriuana, etc. 

Saying you know what is world class implies you have traveled the world for climbing, most have not.

Again not true  

Saying the red is better than some local jug haul is fair. Saying the red is the best jug hual place in the world, without having climbed in other famous jug hual areas does not mean jack. I think many users could contend the Red is the best jug haul place in America but people say the world to sound more experienced than they actually are.

Or, now hear me out on this crazy idea, it is because the Red actually is one of the best “jug haul” places to climb in the world…Have you ever wondered why when you spend some time in the red you frequently see people from all over the country and world there? I’m starting to just think Bruise Bros. shut you down and now you hold some sort of weird vendetta against the Red. 

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Who said anybody suggesting the red makes you an expert? You said that recommending the red was a horrible suggestion. I replied with why it was a valid suggestion.

Agree to an extent, however, when an area like Yosemite or Indian Creek (or Verdon or Grampians) have been established as world class by so many others, it is safe to call those locations as world class by proxy. 

I don't think you can make that proxy. Often people climb something at a world class area. They then climb something local they enjoyed just as much and then they imply the local climb was as good as the world class climb. Maybe or maybe not. 

What flaming? You said to call something world class you have to been to so many states, locations, blah blah blah…so now then when I point out your own lack of climbing experience you get upset?  Interesting

Your not willing to share your own actual climbing experience?

Calm down Trevstar. Let’s not make this another one of your pissing contests. Out of all of those 24 states how much time did you spend at actual established, large, good areas. Climbing choss in Indiana doesn’t exactly hold the same weight as climbing at Smith or Rumney. Sorry I struck that nerve again

I lived next to Rumney!  I don't love smith but I think I have probably done 70 or so pitches there, is that enough? Too few? I don't know, but if people disagree with me, it will just be leveraged against me. 

I’m not a gatekeeper, I’m fact I’m quite the opposite. I’m advocating for world class crags and you are adamantly arguing that they don’t exist. You continuously fail to acknowledge that it is not individual opinions that determine if something is world class. You or I don’t get to determine these things. Climbing is great in many regards because many things are determined collectively. 

If people travel the world for a crag, that doesn't guarantee it is the best crag. It might just be convenient/they do not know any better.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I don't think you can make that proxy. Often people climb something at a world class area. 

Why not? If 100 people who have climbed all over the world all think an area is world class and nobody thinks  that area is bad why could someone who has never been there not say it is world class and be correct? Like I said, I haven’t climbed on hardly any roped climbs in Yosemite for example and can say with good certainty that it is world class.

I’m also still very confused why you are vehemently arguing something is/is not world class when you don’t you believe such classification exists…

Your not willing to share your own actual climbing experience?

I never said that, it just has no bearing in my argument. I’ve climbed at more than 24 states and at damn near every “classic” area in the US with the exception of Yosemite big walls, and Gunks trad climbing. I’ve also climbed at numerous areas outside the US…but people can say whatever they want on the internet so what does that really matter. Assuming I’m not lying though, Is that what you wanted me to say, so that now you can complain about me having an ego?

I lived next to Rumney!  I don't love smith but I think I have probably done 70 or so pitches there, is that enough? Too few? I don't know, but if people disagree with me, it will just be leveraged against me. 

Homeboi, when will you learn that your opinion is not the end-all-be-all. Like I’ve said before, to be world class means that an overwhelming amount of people think it is as good as anywhere in the world. I’ve also said this before, but I can hate an area and that doesn’t mean I don’t think it could still be categorized as amazing, great, world-class, or whatever for what it is. An example I’ve already used; I hate Smith, but I can see the appeal and would not argue when people call it amazing, it’s just not my cup of tea. My opinion, or yours, doesn’t make it any less cool/special.

A single individual’s opinion on a grade and/or quality mean very little unless a bunch of other individuals’ opinions align with them. 

If people travel the world for a crag, that doesn't guarantee it is the best crag. It might just be convenient/they do not know any better.

A.) I never said best, I said world class. Which, as the name suggests, implies Worldly applications. In this case an area that is among the best in the world as is evident by so many people traveling from around the world to come and climb there

B.) convience can certainly play a role on an area or routes quality, no?
C.) didn’t you just say a few posts ago that the Red wasn’t convenient?

D.) seems highly unlikely hundreds of climbers travel from outside the country to an area and every single one of them just “don’t know any better”. 

You started strong with this argument but come on man…they don’t know any better? You can do better.

In all honesty bro, if you’re going to try and argue against a world class crag, maybe fixate on one that isn’t unanimously one of the top areas in the country?

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

I’m also still very confused why you are vehemently arguing something is/is not world class when you don’t you believe such classification exists…

Because he just likes to argue and hear the sound of his own voice.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

Why not? If 100 people who have climbed all over the world all think an area is world class and nobody thinks  that area is bad why could someone who has never been there not say it is world class and be correct? Like I said, I haven’t climbed on hardly any roped climbs in Yosemite for example and can say with good certainty that it is world class.

I’m also still very confused why you are vehemently arguing something is/is not world class when you don’t you believe such classification exists…

I am saying people do not know if it is or is not world class. 

I never said that, it just has no bearing in my argument. I’ve climbed at more than 24 states and at damn near every “classic” area in the US with the exception of Yosemite big walls, and Gunks trad climbing. I’ve also climbed at numerous areas outside the US…but people can say whatever they want on the internet so what does that really matter. Assuming I’m not lying though, Is that what you wanted me to say, so that now you can complain about me having an ego?

That is fair.

Homeboi, when will you learn that your opinion is not the end-all-be-all. Like I’ve said before, to be world class means that an overwhelming amount of people think it is as good as anywhere in the world. I’ve also said this before, but I can hate an area and that doesn’t mean I don’t think it could still be categorized as amazing, great, world-class, or whatever for what it is. An example I’ve already used; I hate Smith, but I can see the appeal and would not argue when people call it amazing, it’s just not my cup of tea. My opinion, or yours, doesn’t make it any less cool/special.

A single individual’s opinion on a grade and/or quality mean very little unless a bunch of other individuals’ opinions align with them. 

So then you agree that we should only call crags world class if there is an actual consensus (like 90% agreement)? That is fine. 

But people come into every thread claiming wild iris/index/tahoe/rumney/other famous American crags are world class. That is really more my issue. I love those crags, but people love to designate their favorite crag as world class. Then throw around the term as a way to signal that they are some hardcore climber. If we can agree there are realistically there are only at most 5 world class destinations in America that is reasonable. But if every crag in America is world class, then what is the point of the designation. 

A.) I never said best, I said world class. Which, as the name suggests, implies Worldly applications. In this case an area that is among the best in the world as is evident by so many people traveling from around the world to come and climb there

B.) convience can certainly play a role on an area or routes quality, no?

Sure!

C.) didn’t you just say a few posts ago that the Red wasn’t convenient?

It is not convenient for people on a limited schedule. It is reasonably convenient for most Americans. 

In all honesty bro, if you’re going to try and argue against a world class crag, maybe fixate on one that isn’t unanimously one of the top areas in the country?
 

I love the Red. I was simply stating we cannot know it is world class.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

I am saying people do not know if it is or is not world class. 

You say that as someone who doesn’t even believe the classification exists. Your opinion on this should mean absolutely nothing in this case….I’m any chase though I am saying they do. 

So then you agree that we should only call crags world class if there is an actual consensus (like 90% agreement)? That is fine. 

Yes, that’s what I’ve said from the beginning…

But people come into every thread claiming wild iris/index/tahoe/rumney/other famous American crags are world class.

Again, unless a large chunk of individuals agree then those outlying individuals mean very little. Additionally, people have a hard time differentiating between “classic” and “world class”. I think we agree that to an extent. Wild Iris; classic, not necessarily world class. Red River Gorge; classic, also world class. 

If we can agree there are realistically there are only at most 5 world class destinations in America that is reasonable. But if every crag in America is world class, then what is the point of the designation.

I think 5 is a fair number. I would contest that the only true world class areas in the US would be: 

Bouldering: Hueco, and Bishop

Sport Clipping: RRG 

Trad: Indian Creek, Yosemite 

Many other places I can see, but just barely miss out for me. Namely NRG, Zion and Red Rocks multipitch.

It is not convenient for people on a limited schedule. It is reasonably convenient for most Americans. 

People don’t often travel across the world with a “limited schedule” just for rock climbing. Most people travel across the world to climb for a set period of time they deem adequate for climbing. 

I love the Red. I was simply stating we cannot know it is world class.

Except that we do know that it is   

if someone on here has climbed all over the world and then says that the red is world class we know it's world class.  if someone here climbs at the red and has interactions  with climbers from other countries who tell that person that they are having a blast and we love this place then we also know its world class. it ain't rocket science.   If someone has worldly experience and says their secret crag is world class I will take their word for it. 

To me, a "world class" rock climbing destination has to have five things:  

1. Volume (There should be more than a lifetimes' worth of routes).

2.  High quality rock / routes (Almost to the point that even the routes that aren't anything special are still good, and there should be good routes at all grades).

3. A high concentration of routes (You shouldn't be bushwacking for hours to get to some remote crag with two routes on it).

4. The area has to be unmistakably unique.  (Take any climber in the world, blind fold them, drop them off, and take the blindfold off, and they should instantly know where they are).

5. The area has to be a destination for something more than just climbing (this might actually be the most overlooked requirement, but is perhaps one of the most important. You should want to spend months here, and you physically can't climb EVERY day.  To me, this is the biggest difference between "world class" and a really, really good area).

In the US the places I've been that fit the bill are, Yosemite, Red Rock, Red River Gorge, Moab / Indian Creek (if you were flying from around the world, you'd treat that like one area), and The Tetons. 

Places I've been that are very, very good, but I wouldn't say are world class are:  Hueco Tanks, Joe's Valley, Ten Sleep, Vedauwoo, Rumney, J Tree, Boulder CO, the Gunks.  Most of these places have lots of great rock, but I think you'd be let down if you flew half way around the world to spend three months there.  Mainly because there's not a ton there other than the climbing that's worth flying half way around the world.

Would you drive past X to climb at Y?  Here are some that make me ponder:

Would you drive past the Dolomites to climb in the Mt. Blanc massif?

Would you drive past the Mt.Blanc massif to climb in Patagonia?

Would you drive past Patagonia to climb in Yosemite?

Would you drive past Yosemite to climb in the Bugaboos?

Would you drive past the Bugaboos to climb at Squamish?

Would you drive past Squamish to climb in Canyonlands?

Would you drive past Costco to shop at Whole Foods?

I've been sidelined with knee surgery and a newborn baby and now suddenly I'm reading MP forums...I hope I can actually climb soon...

Maybe I'm just a climbing superfan, but my standards for world class are quite a bit lower than most folks here.

I think the western US and Canada have at least 20 world class destinations, some are obvious and can become rather crowded while others are low key, under the radar, and provide a world class experience for the climbers who appreciate the style. 

Not every world class crag is desirable for every climber. Devils tower for instance is in my opinion world class, but it doesn't have many high end test pieces or a lifetime of climbing. 

Also, maybe I'm just cheap, but there are many world class destinations I will never visit because I hate to travel. 

Bottom line, the most important thing is to have a world class experience rather than some feather in your cap to post on Instagram or FB.

ETA in no particular order...all the world class areas I've been to in the USA (Canada):

Ibex, red rocks, Joe's, Yosemite, tetons, squamish, black hills, devils tower, index, eldo, Indian creek, winds, lander, ten sleep, rmnp, Zion, bishop, jtree, city of rocks, rrg, bighorns, maple, smith

Still need to visit but I'm sure are world class:

Bugaboos, cascades, Tahoe, acephale, Chattanooga, nrg, hueco, dacs, gunks, high Sierra, horseshoe, Flagstaff and many more. 

I'm sure that with the right mindset and partners, you can have a world class experience at any of these locations! 

Kevin Rwrote:

To me, a "world class" rock climbing destination has to..

3. A high concentration of routes (You shouldn't be bushwacking for hours to get to some remote crag with two routes on it).

Damn... this takes the bulk of my favorite areas out of the running.