Alpine draws at bolted mulitpitch anchors

Connor Dobsonwrote:

Generally yes, unless the rock is shit usually bolts are about 18" apart.

Thanks for the info - I'm a bit confused though. To me an alpine draw is a tripled over 60cm sling, so 20cm plus the length of the krabs on each end. Whereas 18" is about 45cm, so the tripled 60cm sling isn't going to reach. 

Does an alpine draw actually mean a tripled over 120cm sling to you? So 40cm + krabs, which just about matches up with the 18"/45cm.

Jon Twrote:

to reply to you and others - I may have chosen a particularly messy example. Shown better in this video, quite a bit cleaner (with a small hauling setup for what looks like a little 20L bag.

This is functionally the same as a banshee belay rigging (photo below). This screen capture is a nice clean example. It also works well for fix and follow in addition to the tagging/hauling demonstrated here. I've certainly used it when the time was right. 

Personally, not my first choice at belays that double as rappel lines; I'll usually rig a masterpoint in that case so that the rappelling party has more options (one of which might be this method). Joining the bolts with a draw has even been mentioned on these forums before.

I'll add that I have loved using a PAS loop locker draw to combine bolts for raps and anchors. For anyone interested, a single PAS loop is stronger than any of the biners in the system at around 30kn. 

This thread is proof that you can clip stuff together and make a perfectly fine anchor everytime.   

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Much further apart and it really twists the crap out of your rope when pulling or lowering. 

That is because the set up is wrong if that is the result. the best positioning esp for rings is NOT side by side but offset from the horizontal L configuration. This will minimise twists.

If im on a route with bolted anchors, I have a 180cm sling pre tied as a quad. It’s an extra piece to carry but it’s convenient 

Cat Daddywrote:

If im on a route with bolted anchors, I have a 180cm sling pre tied as a quad. It’s an extra piece to carry but it’s convenient 

This is worth the weight, especially if the bolts are glue-ins. The QD method can be more ergonomic though, because belaying directly off the bolt raises the belay.

Cat Daddywrote:

If im on a route with bolted anchors, I have a 180cm sling pre tied as a quad. It’s an extra piece to carry but it’s convenient 

I do this with a 120cm sling as a sliding x with limiter knots and it's awesome, I put it around my chest and keep my grigri and lanyard attached to it. Absolutely no set up time at the belay and I've used it a lot in the alps. 

The anchor is fine to use in some applications, and probably not ideal in others. Just like all climbing anchors.

I hate these conversations because of the lack of context. The original post is a screenshot from a youtube video where there is no context about the route the video creator is on, the tactics he is climbing the route with such as if he is hauling, short-fixing, fix and follow, belaying the second up, etc. Then everyone gets on and blesses or admonishes the anchor based on their own use case scenarios as if everything in climbing is an absolute. 

Last I checked, the video creator is still alive. The anchor must have worked in the scenario he applied it, or it never got tested in some very obscure possible failure scenario that might exist. However, since he's still alive, perhaps you could contact him directly and see if he will discuss his use case and thought process? Then maybe you can get an actual understanding of why he employed it. 

NateCwrote:

The anchor is fine to use in some applications, and probably not ideal in others. Just like all climbing anchors.

I hate these conversations because of the lack of context. The original post is a screenshot from a youtube video where there is no context about the route the video creator is on, the tactics he is climbing the route with such as if he is hauling, short-fixing, fix and follow, belaying the second up, etc. Then everyone gets on and blesses or admonishes the anchor based on their own use case scenarios as if everything in climbing is an absolute. 

Last I checked, the video creator is still alive. The anchor must have worked in the scenario he applied it, or it never got tested in some very obscure possible failure scenario that might exist. However, since he's still alive, perhaps you could contact him directly and see if he will discuss his use case and thought process? Then maybe you can get an actual understanding of why he employed it. 

I understand your point, but claiming lack of context doesn't address what the thread was brought up to discuss: the suitability of this sort of anchor wholesale (i.e. should you ever do this?), which brings up nuanced conversations of context.

Also, I actually mention in the original post what the video is and what the route is - and, if you watch the video (totally easily found through the info i posted) - you can see their tactics in a real setting.

Whether the creator is "still alive" doesn't really mean anything - Tyler is a super accomplished and well-rounded climber, and I'm sure he would have his own internally consistent logic on why he used this setup in this scenario. The point of the thread was for discussion about this in both the context in which it was employed and others. Which, frankly, it definitely produced. Cheers m8.

I can’t believe no one has said it already in 3 pages. The correct answer is the SWAMP anchor. All you need is a single alpine draw but rather than just clipping the bolts together you get a fast and efficient master point as well. I use this all the time.

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/learn-the-swamp-anchor?format=amp

Zach Eitenwrote:

I can’t believe no one has said it already in 3 pages. The correct answer is the SWAMP anchor. All you need is a single alpine draw but rather than just clipping the bolts together you get a fast and efficient master point as well. I use this all the time.

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/learn-the-swamp-anchor?format=amp

How hard is it to untie the knot afterwards? Girth hitched master point seems to have the same advantages but less downsides?

Ricky Harlinewrote:

How hard is it to untie the knot afterwards? Girth hitched master point seems to have the same advantages but less downsides?

It’s not as easy as a girth hitch for sure. I use the girth hitch rather than the SWAMP when ice climbing because it’s easier to untie with gloves. I like the swamp for rock due to the redundancy and the fact untying it isn’t too much of a hassle with hands free. Honestly though, if the climb has bolted anchors you can just leave it tied and use that alpine draw last if you really needed it 

I think the best anchors I've had are in Europe where the belay station has a master ring (connected to both bolts). Locker on the ring, clove my side into it, clip my grigris carabiner into that locker to belay my follower. 

Material used (other than carabiner attached to grigri): 1 locker. 

No knots, no fuckery, ultimate simplicity and speed. 

I think if I bolt MP anchor stations I will be making the same setup in the future.

Example: https://imgur.com/gallery/FeVPMeV

Connor Dobsonwrote:

I think the best anchors I've had are in Europe where the belay station has a master ring (connected to both bolts). Locker on the ring, clove my side into it, clip my grigris carabiner into that locker to belay my follower. 

Material used (other than carabiner attached to grigri): 1 locker. 

No knots, no fuckery, ultimate simplicity and speed. 

I think if I bolt MP anchor stations I will be making the same setup in the future.

Example: https://imgur.com/gallery/FeVPMeV

Also possible on anchor stations with mussies on chains. That's how I equip my multis and a single locker works fine, although admittedly it is a bit carabiner dependent and some biners won't work well. 

This setup is undoubtedly pretty slick tho

mussies on multis?

philip bonewrote:

mussies on multis?

I’ve seen it at pine creek. Weird, but handy for rappelling

They're not too stout for leading past. If you add something else . . . why the expense? Great for sport w/ extensions.

philip bonewrote:

They're not too stout for leading past. If you add something else . . . why the expense? Great for sport w/ extensions.

They are though. Just clip the hanger

philip bonewrote:

mussies on multis?

It's what the kids are doing these days ya know