Alpine draws at bolted mulitpitch anchors

http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2019/11/fixed-point-belay-techniques.html?m=1

https://www.https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/belaying-the-leader-with-a-fixed-point-belay

Quick, easy, clean, Euro-approved

It’s pretty standard to haul off a single bolt on bigwalls, so why not belay? Some stances are super awkward if you build a low equalized anchor. Clipping your belay device as high as possible is the way.

I regularly do this. To add to others points, I find it particularly useful when I'm coming up to a belay behind another party and they have their own anchor already set up. Much better than faffing around with asking to clip their gear, building an anchor underneath theirs, etc. 

Most of the time I'll just clove hitch two bolts in series with the climbing rope. I'll use lockers so each one can act as a "master point".

Sometimes I'll  clip the second bolt with a double bowline in lieu of a clove hitch, so I can use it for a fixed point lead belay.

This is super fast, minimal gear, and as long as you can fit the follower's biners through the bolt hangers there's really no time difference between block and swing leading.

I don't believe it has been mentioned yet, correct me if I'm wrong - just use the SWAMP anchor if you want to use an alpine draw for raps. Easy, simple, kosher, light, fast. 

https://www.alpinesavvy.com/blog/learn-the-swamp-anchor

Jon Twrote:

Hi all, apologies if this post is redundant but I haven't found a thorough discussion of this on the forums. I see a lot of this (pic below) anchor style at multipitch bolted belays, first in Tyler Karow's video of Autobahn on Half Dome, then in this video. Non-lockers at bolted belays has been talked to death, so that's not what im bringing up here. Specifically, the use of a tripled alpine draw to connect two bomber bolts at a bolted multi-pitch belay.

Just for transparency, some possible disadvantages i see here:
1) extension if a bolt were to fail.
2) no adjustable, centralized masterpoint, i.e. you have to use the bolt locations
3) internet comments about safety.

Let me know what your guys' thoughts are.

Looks like two bomber bolts. You trust your butt to a single bolt all the time while sport climbing, this is better!

It's fine.

Question from a UK climber here - are the anchor bolts in the US typically close enough together to link them with an alpine draw? Left in the tripled up setup that is. Obviously the examples here are close enough together, but is that normal?

Fell Overwrote:

Question from a UK climber here - are the anchor bolts in the US typically close enough together to link them with an alpine draw? Left in the tripled up setup that is. Obviously the examples here are close enough together, but is that normal?

Generally yes, unless the rock is shit usually bolts are about 18" apart.

Fell Overwrote:

Question from a UK climber here - are the anchor bolts in the US typically close enough together to link them with an alpine draw? Left in the tripled up setup that is. Obviously the examples here are close enough together, but is that normal?

Much further apart and it really twists the crap out of your rope when pulling or lowering. 

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

Much further apart and it really twists the crap out of your rope when pulling or lowering. 

Only if you space them horizontally.  If you space vertically, or offset-vertically, it is fine.

David Gibbswrote:

Only if you space them horizontally.  If you space vertically, or offset-vertically, it is fine.

That’s how I do it when bolting multi pitch anchors.  Most people here aren’t used to seeing off set anchors, they think they have to be placed horizontally and perfectly equalized.  

Brandon Rwrote:

Huh, it seems like the things I find annoying or a PITA are the things you find to be no big deal, and the things you find annoying are things I think are no big deal. A couple questions though: have you ever used the shelf to keep 'biners from getting trapped? With a keylock 'biner I've never had a problem getting them out. Do you bring extra lockers for other parties, or do you have them clip into the lockers you already are using? On a true hanging belay I hear you about getting cramped, but I've always found that a minor discomfort and if there's a stance pretty much a nonissue. I think if I were doing it your way I would modify it a bit to be like a fixed-point/banshee belay. Anyway, thanks for the civil response.

Yea I'm used to using a shelf on gear anchors, and I do have snagless lockers, but I find when you're weighting the cordo/sling it's still too annoying for me. It's all personal preference though, like you said.

Just to add some validity to the OP - this technique was published in David Coley's excellent online multi-pitch climbing resource: http://www.multipitchclimbing.com

See the "Descent" link.

Jeremy Baumanwrote:

Just to add some validity to the OP - this technique was published in David Coley's excellent online multi-pitch climbing resource: http://www.multipitchclimbing.com

See the "Descent" link.

Interesting that he chose to put it in that particular chapter. 

Bomber bolts, I have no doubt either bolt would hold the load if for some freak incident one bolt failed.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

 If you really believe the bolt has a chance of failing don't do it

I'm always confused by this. The entire purpose of connecting the two bolts is in case of one failing. Why else would you connect them?

Mike zzzwrote:

Bomber bolts, I have no doubt either bolt would hold the load if for some freak incident one bolt failed.

I'm always confused by this. The entire purpose of connecting the two bolts is in case of one failing. Why else would you connect them?

I think he means that you should use a more robust, less extending method if you have any doubts. But I see your point... the act of connecting them does seem to indicate that maybe you're not 100% sure the bolts are bomber. Otherwise, you could shave off even less time/weight/faff by not connecting them. 

Still, it's mostly party preference (not just personal preference, as your partners should fully agree to this less standard method also). 

Brandon Rwrote:

Interesting that he chose to put it in that particular chapter. 

I think, since he does call it a "temporary anchor" in that specific example, he doesn't want to emphasize that the draw method is a method as robust as others. He emphasizes banshee belays in the anchor section, which have some similar drawbacks as the draw method (namely extension and lack of equalization) but banshee's are more versatile. Whether it's any safer (in the case of two bolts where one will hold if the other rips) i think is pretty debatable.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

That’s how I do it when bolting multi pitch anchors.  Most people here aren’t used to seeing off set anchors, they think they have to be placed horizontally and perfectly equalized.  

Thanks to the rampant paranoia and what-ifs constantly moaned about on MP. Some of the responses in this thread are great examples.

I also don’t use a master point and belay off my harness, adding some squishy meat that keeps forces off the anchor. I’ve never weighted the anchor when belaying the (possibly fallen) follower (who will be the leader on the next pitch), even on hip belays. But I’m crusty old school. Belay devices didn’t exist - or at least in common use - when I started.

Not denigrating modern methods, but often the dicking around evidenced here just isn’t necessary.  Too much doing by rote and not enough understanding the concepts. 

Here's a much cleaner version of the setup I screenshot and annotated from a Tyler Karow video when I got interested in this topic ...

Leif Mahoneywrote:

Here's a much cleaner version of the setup I screenshot and annotated from a Tyler Karow video when I got interested in this topic ...

You realize now that you posted this picture someone is going to freak out and say those shoes clipped into the left side is going to cross load the eye of the draw and rip all the stitches out.  Lol.