Alpine draws at bolted mulitpitch anchors

Hi all, apologies if this post is redundant but I haven't found a thorough discussion of this on the forums. I see a lot of this (pic below) anchor style at multipitch bolted belays, first in Tyler Karow's video of Autobahn on Half Dome, then in this video. Non-lockers at bolted belays has been talked to death, so that's not what im bringing up here. Specifically, the use of a tripled alpine draw to connect two bomber bolts at a bolted multi-pitch belay.

Just for transparency, some possible disadvantages i see here:
1) extension if a bolt were to fail.
2) no adjustable, centralized masterpoint, i.e. you have to use the bolt locations
3) internet comments about safety.

Let me know what your guys' thoughts are.

Two slings, clip, clip, a single master knot into the two slings (equalized, viola), back it up with a clove into one of the bolts. Done, less than a minute. 

Don't overcomplicate the most simple of anchor configurations. 

All that dicking around with draws and slings in the pic sure looks like a mess to me. Then again, I hear people are belaying off tiblocs and accessory carabiners nowadays, so maybe I'm behind the times. 

I do this when I'm rapping for peace of mind. On the way up I usually just do a double length sling tied into a master point but I wouldn't give it a second thought if I arrived to a belay and saw my partner did this. 

I do this all the time at belays where we are making transitions, we will each clip into a single bolt and connect them with a draw, get our crap sorted out then the belayer makes a anchor of his choosing and the leader takes off.  Its just a back up while getting things sorted out.  If you really believe the bolt has a chance of failing don't do it, I'm talking buttonheads, 1/4 studs and spinners but modern 3/8 or 1/2 bolts I wouldn't hesitate to use this technique unless it was a rusted out mess.   If this technique makes you uncomfortable don't do it, it's just another tool in the quiver.

THIS setup is very messy. Alpine draw could be up higher in the bolt hangers themselves. Normally you treat one of the rings as a masterpoint. Tether to it, belay off a carabiner off it. Your partner, when they arrive can tether to the ring, or in this case the ring on the other bolt. You can also always add a large HMS carabiner to the ring and treat that as a master point... When you don't do it like in the pic it can be a very fast and very clean way to do things.

If the bolt you were on failed there could be a short swinging fall. Ideally you would tether in with something dynamic, like the climbing rope itself. I suppose you could use an alpine with lockers if you had one ready... Or do your personal clove tether, then clove or some knot to the other bolt... So many options for handling 2 bolt anchors.

1) Looks like the extension would be minimal, maybe 2 inches?  And there would be a bit of swing.  I wouldn't worry about it.
2) Masterpoints are overrated. In this setup, each climber has their own bolt to clip in to, which can be more convenient.
3) The internet doesn't know what it's talking about. 

The particular anchor shown looks a bit messy.

Big fan of just connecting bolts and not making a masterpoint. I use my tether or the rope, but anything works. Spaces out the belay, makes for less of a cluster than trying to cram a bunch of stuff onto a single masterpoint.

JaredGwrote:

1) Looks like the extension would be minimal, maybe 2 inches?  And there would be a bit of swing.  I wouldn't worry about it.
2) Masterpoints are overrated. In this setup, each climber has their own bolt to clip in to, which can be more convenient.
3) The internet doesn't know what it's talking about. 

The particular anchor shown looks a bit messy.

to reply to you and others - I may have chosen a particularly messy example. Shown better in this video, quite a bit cleaner (with a small hauling setup for what looks like a little 20L bag.

Yeah, I climbed Super Slide in Yosemite a couple years ago and earlier that season one of the anchor bolts pulled out by hand at a rap station and that made me not want to fully be dependent on a single bolt whenever I can help it. Clipping the alpine draw takes 4 seconds and I don’t care about equalization in these scenarios so it works perfectly. 

My only problem with this type of anchor is it totally cock-blocks the fixed protection. If another party is passing you or rapping through, things get messy.

Not an issue on what these kids are doing, but don't go doing that shit on Crimson Chrysalis.

Big Redwrote:

Big fan of just connecting bolts and not making a masterpoint. I use my tether or the rope, but anything works. Spaces out the belay, makes for less of a cluster than trying to cram a bunch of stuff onto a single masterpoint.

I'm not going to say your anchor preference is wrong, but I've never understood the notion that a masterpoint anchor is clunky or difficult in any way. In addition to solving most safety concerns of redundancy, no extension, and at least some load sharing, it also has the benefits of being super easy (and clear) to clip into (single clove w/rope), 2 places to clip into (masterpoint and shelf, gives some separation if needed), super easy to swing pitches or block them out, can be used as a rap extension AND tether if rapping afterwards so you don't need that clunky PAS getting in the way the whole route. Often, you can just leave it tied for the whole route since most bolt anchors are horizontally oriented. And my sponsors have not noticed a decline in my performance due to the weight of a 120cm sling yet.   Also takes up very little hardware space. With the previous anchor pic, what do you do when you have to share an anchor or another party is rappelling through? Anyway, that's just, like, my opinion man. 

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Two slings, clip, clip, a single master knot into the two slings (equalized, viola), back it up with a clove into one of the bolts. Done, less than a minute. 

Don't overcomplicate the most simple of anchor configurations. 

^seems a bit overcomplicated. PAS/clove to bolt, clip draw to that bolt, other bolt, clip belay device to non-pas/clove bolt.

Masterpoints suck. When 2 things are weighting the anchor it's a constant annoying balancing act. You also don't have any natural separation, unless you unless you tether in short somewhere else, but then why do you have a masterpoint at all?

I have never used an anchor where I cared about load sharing at all. They obviously exist, but doing something less convenient in 99.9% of situations just for consistency with the remaining 0.1% does not seem like a good tradeoff to me.

Sharing anchors is the biggest non-issue. They tether in anywhere. Before you leave they can add their own connector draw.

Rappelling parties are another non-issue. They tether in anywhere. And there's no reason for them to thread the rings, they can rap through one of your lockers that you put wherever convenient. Even better, if the terrain allows, fix their rope as a single strand and let them bypass the next station.

It's hard for me to tell what's going on in that cluster, but connecting the two bolts together when setting up a rappel is not unusual. It looks like they both have their tethers on, so this may not be a belay but a rappel. (ascending vs. rappeling)

Clipping the two bolts together provides redundancy until you are both set up for rappeling.

Brandon Rwrote:

I'm not going to say your anchor preference is wrong, but I've never understood the notion that a masterpoint anchor is clunky or difficult in any way. In addition to solving most safety concerns of redundancy, no extension, and at least some load sharing, it also has the benefits of being super easy (and clear) to clip into (single clove w/rope), 2 places to clip into (masterpoint and shelf, gives some separation if needed), super easy to swing pitches or block them out, can be used as a rap extension AND tether if rapping afterwards so you don't need that clunky PAS getting in the way the whole route. Often, you can just leave it tied for the whole route since most bolt anchors are horizontally oriented. And my sponsors have not noticed a decline in my performance due to the weight of a 120cm sling yet.   Also takes up very little hardware space. With the previous anchor pic, what do you do when you have to share an anchor or another party is rappelling through? Anyway, that's just, like, my opinion man. 

To each their own. I like having the belay device up high on the bolt, and I like not getting biners trapped due to weighting the masterpoint. Plus one less thing to carry and set up/break down. As others have mentioned, parties coming through is still easy - just use my lockers. And if there's space it's very easy for me to lean out of the way without pulling the whole masterpoint, and my partner, along with me.

This kind of setup (the alpine draw linking the two bolts together) works well when moving fast in my opinion when the second is toprope soloing, and provides a his & hers side of the anchor dynamic.

First partner cloves into one bolt on locking carabineer, connects alpine draw between bolts and pulls up extra rope for the second climber. Then ties a figure eight on a bite to the second anchor bolt with a locker. Second then ascends on rope soloing device while the first climber can chill. Pretty easy and keeps the solo strand out of the way.

Big Redwrote:

To each their own. I like having the belay device up high on the bolt, and I like not getting biners trapped due to weighting the masterpoint. Plus one less thing to carry and set up/break down. As others have mentioned, parties coming through is still easy - just use my lockers. And if there's space it's very easy for me to lean out of the way without pulling the whole masterpoint, and my partner, along with me.

Huh, it seems like the things I find annoying or a PITA are the things you find to be no big deal, and the things you find annoying are things I think are no big deal. A couple questions though: have you ever used the shelf to keep 'biners from getting trapped? With a keylock 'biner I've never had a problem getting them out. Do you bring extra lockers for other parties, or do you have them clip into the lockers you already are using? On a true hanging belay I hear you about getting cramped, but I've always found that a minor discomfort and if there's a stance pretty much a nonissue. I think if I were doing it your way I would modify it a bit to be like a fixed-point/banshee belay. Anyway, thanks for the civil response.

the abhorrent sins you people will dream up just to avoid using a quad like Yahweh intended

bryans wrote:

About clipping just one bolt; I've lost track of how many times I've read a route description and come across something like "5th bolt pulled out of the wall." I know it's rare, but I still get creeped out hanging or being dependent on just one bolt. It only takes a few seconds to find a way to clip to the second anchor bolt.. Scroll the comments to see this bolt that just "fell out," in this case only while on toprope, not even a lead fall.

The bolt didn’t “pull out” in the above situation.  It came unscrewed, which is the vast majority of the bolt “failures” I hear about.   To me that is a really big difference in failure methods and ones that shouldn’t be conflated.    

That being said I rarely would ever trust a single bolt unless I have to. And I’d make sure it isn’t loose before I do.

And I regularly belay off of a single bolt that is backed up to another bolt with a runner or draw. Pretty much identical setup to what Tyler is doing in his videos.  

bryans wrote:

You must have more info than was posted, but that makes sense. I've had a lead bolt "fail" at Ozone when I clipped it and the hanger came sliding down my rope, but again that was a case of "unscrewing" and not bolt failure. Same thing happened to my friend with a fixed pin on Blood, Sweat and Smears at Beacon except there the pin really came out of the wall under the weight of a quickdraw, I saw it with my own eyes. So I see your point, and you see mine if you back up a single bolt when there's a chance to do so.

Bolt failure at an anchor should be a moot point if you make a visual and physical evaluation of the bolt prior to setting up your anchor as you should at every anchor.   I’ve also had bolts pull out on route but never at the anchor but the bolts I’ve pulled out were 1/4 inch stud and button heads.   I’ve yet to see a bolt failure with 3/8 or 1/2 inch except in Zion sandstone.  I climb mostly in the west in the Sierra and high desert areas in good granite and dry climate so bolt failures are pretty rare.