Permadraw Advice

Is there any functional difference between a cable draw like this one from climbtech ( climbtech.com/products/cabl…) and using some stainless chain to a steel biner? If the price were the same, which would you use?

I don't like the cable draws. I think their only benefit is being lighter which is better for rope drag (and obviously when installing).

They suck for grabbing.
The only higher option for going in direct is the quicklink at the top, which is more awkward than picking any chain link.

Dan The Manwrote:

Is there any functional difference between a cable draw like this one from climbtech ( climbtech.com/products/cabl…) and using some stainless chain to a steel biner? If the price were the same, which would you use?

Functional difference would be that stainless chain won't rust, the galvanized cable eventually will.  

I like 5/16 or 3/8 chains, but with the cost of two quicklinks + a captive eye carabiner, x2 for redundant lower off/ toproping anchors, the cost adds up quick! Those climb tech ones have been out of stock for a while.

I got a good deal on here for some fixe draco plated biners and coupled them with some plated 5/16 chain and quicklinks, even though it's all plated it still came out to the most expensive route I've ever bolted.

Cable draws pivot differently and can hang in better/worse ways around uneven rock faces. So make sure to think about how the perma-draw will interfere with a climber's foot, hand or other parts of the body. Chain can be safer over sharp edges when a cable draw can get abraded. 

If you are doing longer chains (anything more than 7 links) I would advise going with high strength 5/16" chain over 3/8". If you have a lot of long 3/8" chain they cause drag in funny ways, especially if you are doing 3-4 foot long chains.

The main issue with 5/16" chain is finding quick links that fit. Ideally I pair 3/8" quick links with 5/16 chain if the draw is going to be fallen on a bunch. 5/16" quick links can groove quickly on regular hangers. If you are using glue-in bolts, then the quicklink size doesn't really matter since you have round stock on round stock.

If you are buying steel biners with a captive bar the size of the opening varies between brands.

Metolius and Trango steel biners work with 3/8 chain.

Beal and Climbtech steel biners  only work with 1/4" or 5/16" chain.

I have used both chain and cable perma draws on my routes, they both work fine. Cable draws might be slightly less of a visual impact, but regardless if you use chain paint it so that it blends with the rock. Lately I have been using  Camp's perma draws and really like them, burley construction, nice to grab, and a great clipping carabiner; if you can find a good deal on them they are worth it. 

No one ever responded to a comment I made earlier about this. But last time I was looking and looking in the pro store all the quick links coming with the cable draws were marked ps which I assumed was plated steel.

Since the cable draws are protected by a rubber tube I would think water would accelerate the rust process. Some of cable draws here look a little manky after 7 years on the wall.

Cable draws for pro bolts. Chain for anchors.  The cables keep the biner in place better making them easier to clip,  less visual impact,  easier to grab, and less rope drag. The only time I use chain is if the bolt position is prone to wearing the cable especially where the cable meets the quicklink.  

Cable draws wear out quicker because they have very little material and rust pretty quickly. Also, as they age, they will twist, making them impossible to tell which way to clip them correctly. A good friend got seriously injured because he backclipped a twisted cable draw and when he moved past it, it spun back to normal and then unclipped itself when he fell. Ive never once seen that with a chain draw. 

5/16th chain for runners

3/8th chain for anchors (if you want to splurge)

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

No one ever responded to a comment I made earlier about this. But last time I was looking and looking in the pro store all the quick links coming with the cable draws were marked ps which I assumed was plated steel.

Since the cable draws are protected by a rubber tube I would think water would accelerate the rust process. Some of cable draws here look a little manky after 7 years on the wall.

As always it depends on the route and flow of water. Some permas in Washington have aged well, while others rust quickly. On crux bolts I expect the biner to wear out before the permadraw (Like on Psychosomatic). Camp draws seem to retain more water, and can look manky since they get sunbleached. 

The camp biners are defintly nice to clip, but do tend to rust/stick if they are not used frequently. I tend to use wiregate steel biners if I expect more moisture on the route. I've used SS quicklinks on the Camp perma draws (I've also seen this at the New River Gorge).

Very few companies make SS biners, and no-one makes a SS permadraw. I've installed fully SS anchors at places like Index that get a lot of moisture. In certain places I've just started using the Cypher SS biners on SS chains for permas. Time will tell if they are in better shape then a steel biner on a SS chain. The main thing that I've noticed is (on high wear anchors and draws) that SS is a softer metal and wears out faster.

Luke Stefurakwrote:

I tend to use wiregate steel biners if I expect more moisture on the route.

In certain places I've just started using the Cypher SS biners on SS chains for permas. 

I been looking for more options just like this, anyone have hyperlinks to other SS wire gates, perhaps something with captive pin? 

Shawn Swrote:

I been looking for more options just like this, anyone have hyperlinks to other SS wire gates, perhaps something with captive pin? 

The Cypher SS biners that I've bought via mtnoutlet have come with a captive pin. It's a hammer in pin, which is not my fav, but works. 

Word Thanks Luke, much cheaper there! and description doesn't say captive pin anywhere but there is a lil blip in the pix that looks like a hole for a pin so I'll take your word for it

Thanks for your replies. I'm thinking the best option for long-term is stainless steel chain to a non-stainless steel carabiner. That biner can be easily swapped out when it gets worn out or rusty.

Dan The Manwrote:

Thanks for your replies. I'm thinking the best option for long-term is stainless steel chain to a non-stainless steel carabiner. That biner can be easily swapped out when it gets worn out or rusty.

Checkout the 8mm long link chain from TT / bolt products. Maybe a good solution for you. Lighter than regular chain due to fewer links. Lots of room for quicklink also.

Chain looks like hell. Unless it's commonly accepted at an area, please don't. I still think non-colored biners and grey slings/webbing is the best thing. Less visual impact, easier to grab. People can switch stuff out as needed.

LL2wrote:

Chain looks like hell. Unless it's commonly accepted at an area, please don't. I still think non-colored biners and grey slings/webbing is the best thing. Less visual impact, easier to grab. People can switch stuff out as needed.

Please don't use slings or webbing. Even the slightest amount of wind and abrasion will chew right through them. If you insist on using nylon, 9 mm static line is a little better (even if the sheath bakes in the sun and abrades, sometimes the core is ok).

Chain or cable is preferable, though.

LL2wrote:

Chain looks like hell. Unless it's commonly accepted at an area, please don't. I still think non-colored biners and grey slings/webbing is the best thing. Less visual impact, easier to grab. People can switch stuff out as needed.

Never do this, or only on a temporary basis til you can afford a permanent solution. 

Chain hangs there like a big WTF?! to everyone who is not a climber. Land managers and non-climbers? What do you think they see? Cable if you must. The Wasatch got by for 20 or 30 years without this visual blight. And make no mistake: it IS visual blight.

Someone recently broke a nylon permadraw on a popular roof climb at the greenbelt in Austin.  Luckily they didn't hit the deck.  The guy who installed the nylon permadraw said it was only a couple of years old, he thought it would last longer since it was under a roof.  

I wouldn't trust it

Bungee cords. They add a sense of adventure 

LL2wrote:

Chain hangs there like a big WTF?! to everyone who is not a climber. Land managers and non-climbers? What do you think they see? Cable if you must. The Wasatch got by for 20 or 30 years without this visual blight. And make no mistake: it IS visual blight.

Speaking of The Wasatch, have you taken a look at some of the nylon or dynema permas at Pipedream? Not confidence inspiring.