New and Experienced climbers over 50 #20

Lori, I am neither a doctor, a scientist, nor a wizard, but I think your Dr. Reiss is totally wrong, especially to make such a broad generalization ( intentionally redundant wording) that "none of us should be engaging in strenuous exercise". First of all, who is "us"? Humans, as individuals, at any age have a vast spectrum of abilities and deficits--mix of genetics, life style, opportunities, diet,environment, luck---many other factors, so to give a prescription like that meant to encompass all of us (even if limiting it to the 'over 50 bracket') is just ridiculous. Sure we all suffer increasing breakdowns (both physical and, often, cognitive)  beyond a certain age (though that age will vary from person to person) but that doesn't mean that we can't remain (relatively) "fit and strong, motivated and happy"---sure, not as much so as at 20, but still... Sometimes we can even make progress in certain of these areas, other times just 'maintaining' can be accepted as a positive outcome, or, eventually, becoming satisfied with lesser levels of performance--but still being motivated and happy just by being able to 'do' is enough. Yeah, eventually nature will win out as parts of our bodies will totally fail for most of us, then our whole systems, but until then, I know that for most of us we can do a lot more than "15 minutes of light treadmill" 3 times a week---we not only 'can' do that, but we 'should' and, really, 'must' do so.

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Gabe, we were at Precipice  yesterday. 

Nice you were able to get in a longer trip to Acadia.  I was only there the one day - on Saturday.  The rest of my long weekend was family time with my in-laws.  I love Acadia - it's an outdoor-person's playground.

Me, my wife, and my daughter got out climbing again on Sunday.  Just a little local crag.  My daughter toproped two climbs very well.  I belayed from above, which was a huge treat, as I was able to see perfectly the intense look of focus and determination as she problem-solved and worked hard to send the routes.  Unfortunately we put her on a third that was too much of a challenge, and ended in screaming and tears.  Oh well.

I found some challenging boulders, and got a good hard pump.  My right forearm (the one with the issue) is a bit sore today.  Hopefully just normal muscle soreness from a hard workout, though I have definitely felt more issues in my elbow since the hard bouldering followed by a gym workout a few weeks ago.  I'll do opposition exercises today and try to keep it really light at the gym tomorrow.

Though I do hope to start getting back in shape.  I have a long weekend in the works at Rumney over the Fourth of July.  I'd like to at least have a little gas in the tank by the time we go.  I'm thinking the best way to get that is focusing on power-endurance.  I'm certainly not going to build real power or real endurance in a month, but the compromise of power-endurance - maybe I can get a little.  And Rumney is well suited to that - as it tends to be mostly about boulder problems with decent rests between them.  I'm thinking of gym bouldering doing four-by-fours.  So tomorrow I'll scope out the bouldering, see if I can find some problems that might be a good set.

GO

Lori Milaswrote:

My one doctor, Uzzi Reiss MD,  who I have entrusted with my life for 30+ years... definitely a wizard and scientist... believes none of us should be engaging in strenuous exercise.  When I see him now, he reminds me that 15 minutes of light treadmill 3 x a week is what is best for the body.    

I am a scientist who studies exercise as medicine. I wouldn’t suggest you listen to anything I might say about hormone replacement therapy. Similarly, I’d recommend not paying any attention to Dr Reiss’ views on exercise.  

CDC recommendations

Do moderately vigorous exercise for at least 150 minutes per week, AND resistance training, AND something that challenges balance. 

tail end of the trip. cruised up into the rangly maine region

and camped deep.

we saw and eagle and an osprey while trying to avoid being devoured by sheeters.

the noise these blood suckers made trying to get in was chilling. I got perverse pleasure out of occasionally turning the fan on high speed and mincing them.. hit up Dixville notch on the last day. strange being here with no ice. Too bad the rock is kitty litter. It feels like the same shaley stuff they have in Glacier

Lori, obviously not a doctor, but common sense and my own experience tell me that doing strenuous activities long term is likely to wear out various body parts, never mind the potential for accidents. But then you could be very prudent and only do moderate exercise and still slip on ice going to take in the morning paper. So where's the fun in that?

BTW, Bruce says absolutely no to me going camping with Tim Riggins.

I'd find a new doctor.   That is one of the more perverse views of human abilities that I have heard.  I have friends that still run and ride hard and climb hard for many hours a day and they are all over 65.  Hard exercise is the best medicine for every body.

Lori- what Alan said.

And referring back to Tom Cruz and your thoughts on how vibrant he is.
Tom Cruz is an actor. He pretends. He has many people who help him pretend. Nothing you see on the big screen is real, it’s all pretend, fake, fictional. Tom also has many people- much younger people who double for him to show how “fit he is” ... Don’t you wish- just for a second- that you could film “Lori” climbing The Beaver, RFYL, New Deal or something else- but it’s not you! It’s some fit 25 something wearing a “Dave’s not Here” red shirt, a blonde wig and padding in the pants to make it look like you. Then we go lower you down or hoist you up so we can get some close up “shots” of your face and hands at different spots with lots of different facial expressions- we’ll edit later to get the best one- then we’ll get the double to be on the climb and get some action “shots” from far away and some different angles. We will call it a “wrap” and give video over to the editor’s and what is called the “magic”, as they say in Hollywood, can be made.
If you wish to do this please have your people contact my people and we can discuss the project over lunch at “Spagos”.

Sorry to learn that Tony is hurting some and your exhausted. All this goes with the territory of “older” I reckon. I personally will accept that as opposed to the other option. 

Keep climbing, keep enjoying LIFE, the sunsets, sunrises, the rocks, your friends, the good food and feelings, even the pain (let’s you know your alive!) 

At my elderly parents home right now taking care of Mom while Dad is in hospital… so maybe I’m in a reflection mood.

Be well 

Jan Mcwrote:

I'd find a new doctor.   That is one of the more perverse views of human abilities that I have heard.  I have friends that still run and ride hard and climb hard for many hours a day and they are all over 65.  Hard exercise is the best medicine for every body.

I agree about needing rigorous exercise even at an old age.  Of course, rigorous needs to adjusted downward appropriately as one ages.
I use my heart rate as a guide. At rest, mine is low 50's. I try hard not to go past 140's when I 'red line'.

Lori, your heart rate during sleep is higher than I had expected. When you are near maximum exertion, what is then?

Edit to add: Alan R is a beast.  We spent all day yesterday climbing and hiking together.  As always I was impressed by his level of physical and mental toughness.  I can only hope I will be nearly as good/fit as he is in 2032.

Guy Keeseewrote:

Lori- what Alan said.

And referring back to Tom Cruz and your thoughts on how vibrant he is.
Tom Cruz is an actor. He pretends. He has many people who help him pretend. Nothing you see on the big screen is real, it’s all pretend, fake, fictional. Tom also has many people- much younger people who double for him to show how “fit he is” ... Don’t you wish- just for a second- that you could film “Lori” climbing The Beaver, RFYL, New Deal or something else- but it’s not you! It’s some fit 25 something wearing a “Dave’s not Here” red shirt, a blonde wig and padding in the pants to make it look like you. Then we go lower you down or hoist you up so we can get some close up “shots” of your face and hands at different spots with lots of different facial expressions- we’ll edit later to get the best one- then we’ll get the double to be on the climb and get some action “shots” from far away and some different angles. We will call it a “wrap” and give video over to the editor’s and what is called the “magic”, as they say in Hollywood, can be made.
If you wish to do this please have your people contact my people and we can discuss the project over lunch at “Spagos”.

Sorry to learn that Tony is hurting some and your exhausted. All this goes with the territory of “older” I reckon. I personally will accept that as opposed to the other option. 

Keep climbing, keep enjoying LIFE, the sunsets, sunrises, the rocks, your friends, the good food and feelings, even the pain (let’s you know your alive!) 

At my elderly parents home right now taking care of Mom while Dad is in hospital… so maybe I’m in a reflection mood.

Be well 

Actually, Tom Cruise does not use stunt doubles.  He does (almost) all his own stunts.  And that running stuff ?  That's actually him running quite well and quite fast at 60ish.  So, in reality, Tom Cruise is quite fit and vibrant at 60ish and not pretending.  

Tim Schafstallwrote:

Actually, Tom Cruise does not use stunt doubles.  He does (almost) all his own stunts.  And that running stuff ?  That's actually him running quite well and quite fast at 60ish.  So, in reality, Tom Cruise is quite fit and vibrant at 60ish and not pretending.  

Tell that to Ron kauk……

oldfattradguuy kkwrote:

Tell that to Ron kauk……

 I did say "(almost) all his own stunts."

Tim Schafstallwrote:

Actually, Tom Cruise does not use stunt doubles.  He does (almost) all his own stunts.  And that running stuff ?  That's actually him running quite well and quite fast at 60ish.  So, in reality, Tom Cruise is quite fit and vibrant at 60ish and not pretending.  

Never thought I'd find myself defending old Tom... but he is genuine, looking older but fabulous, and it was cool reading the entire set of interviews put out by his whole crew and co-stars.  They love him.  I saw nothing in his demeanor, on or off camera, that looked like he was trying to be or act younger.  He represents the far end of the bell curve of fitness and health.  

Yes, Guy... I would take a photoshopped version of myself climbing the Beaver.    

I may have misspoken about Uzzi's advice.  I always leave his office with an armful of studies.  I just browsed through his latest book where he discusses cardio and strength, targeted workouts, daily physical exercise which says nothing about less is more.  So, perhaps his advice was to 'me' specifically.  He has also told me the story several times of his own journey into adrenal exhaustion... long hours doctoring and eventual total collapse, and how after a long period of recovery he thought it would be ok to go for a run on the beach.  It put him back to bed and on cortisone for months.  He felt like death warmed over.  That was to instruct me not to go and do likewise.  

Here's what I can say/ask in general:  when it comes to hormones and meds, I am wondering if we blow through these faster than your average person.  My thyroid meds are now much higher than any 'normal' adult over 65 takes.  And yet, apparently by the lab numbers, not enough.  My Kaiser docs have their parameters.  They have studies that show that at the age of 65 the TSH (thyroid marker) should never be below "1".  So, they give much less thyroid meds to anyone over 65.  

My current Endocrinologist does not know what to do with me, I'm in no profile of theirs.  He's giving me latitude, but the concern is always how much is too much?  

We had this same problem when I asked about my resting and active heart rates.  On the rock I have had heart rate of 170+.  My Primary doc had to consult with a Cardiologist before he could tell me that 'for you, that's ok.'  But yes, the night of hard exercise my resting/sleeping heartrate is also elevated.  I guess we're writing our own medical stories.

Wendy... BUMMER.  We he be happier if you had a chaperone?  I would be willing to do the honors.  

wendy weisswrote:

BTW, Bruce says absolutely no to me going camping with Tim Riggins.

Wendy, LOL!

wendy weisswrote:

Lori, obviously not a doctor, but common sense and my own experience tell me that doing strenuous activities long term is likely to wear out various body parts, [edit]

The body-as-machine that wears out with use has a plausibility and was a popular idea in medicine as late as the 90s (which is when I guess Dr Reiss got his ideas). As we get older and feel aches and pains it’s natural to associate them with the activities of our youth. There is now copious evidence to disprove this. Long time runners have denser bones and stronger joint cartilage than the sedentary. Bodies are not machines, they are living and they adapt. “We become what we do” (Aristotle, and many others). If we want to be strong into our old age we have to challenge our muscles regularly.

It’s especially important for older women to do some kind of regular strength training (rock climbing is great) as they are particularly likely to suffer from muscle and bone density loss.

In my 60s but still trying hard. 

Alan Rubinwrote:

Lori, I am neither a doctor, a scientist, nor a wizard, but I think your Dr. Reiss is totally wrong, especially to make such a broad generalization ( intentionally redundant wording) that "none of us should be engaging in strenuous exercise". First of all, who is "us"? Humans, as individuals, at any age have a vast spectrum of abilities and deficits--mix of genetics, life style, opportunities, diet,environment, luck---many other factors, so to give a prescription like that meant to encompass all of us (even if limiting it to the 'over 50 bracket') is just ridiculous. Sure we all suffer increasing breakdowns (both physical and, often, cognitive)  beyond a certain age (though that age will vary from person to person) but that doesn't mean that we can't remain (relatively) "fit and strong, motivated and happy"---sure, not as much so as at 20, but still... Sometimes we can even make progress in certain of these areas, other times just 'maintaining' can be accepted as a positive outcome, or, eventually, becoming satisfied with lesser levels of performance--but still being motivated and happy just by being able to 'do' is enough. Yeah, eventually nature will win out as parts of our bodies will totally fail for most of us, then our whole systems, but until then, I know that for most of us we can do a lot more than "15 minutes of light treadmill" 3 times a week---we not only 'can' do that, but we 'should' and, really, 'must' do so.

Absolutely!  Use it or loose it.  Me, I'd get a new doctor.

duncan...wrote:

The body-as-machine that wears out with use has a plausibility and was a popular idea in medicine as late as the 90s (which is when I guess Dr Reiss got his ideas). As we get older and feel aches and pains it’s natural to associate them with the activities of our youth. There is now copious evidence to disprove this. Long time runners have denser bones and stronger joint cartilage than the sedentary. Bodies are not machines, they are living and they adapt. “We become what we do” (Aristotle, and many others). If we want to be strong into our old age we have to challenge our muscles regularly.

It’s especially important for older women to do some kind of regular strength training (rock climbing is great) as they are particularly likely to suffer from muscle and bone density loss.

duncan, I do suffer from osteoporosis despite many years of strenuous exercise (climbing, hiking and backpacking, telemarking, exercising with weights, bicycling, and a little running) and gym climbing right up to today (well, last Friday). I'm afraid it just goes with the territory of being skinny. But I think that my two torn rotator cuffs were the result of climbing and skiing and would not have happened if I'd lived a more sedentary life. Don't know about my recent hip replacement. Arthritis may strike anyone. 

Tim… with all due respect.

Tom isn’t the one who makes that call (his own stunts). The quality of the production would suffer and the insurance company might have a thing or three to say about it.

Hollywood wants you to believe he is like his character - but again it’s fictional, all of it.

I am part of a 4 generation family of move makers. Grandpa Gill moved here in 1923, stage hand, married grandma Flo who made costumes for silent films and the first “talking films” her big achievement was Wizard of Oz…. Uncle Gary was set director on Bonanza, Big Valley and other 60/70’s TV productions. My cousin was “lead set man” for The Waltons, NYPD Blue and many other feature films, my son in-law is a film editor. My entire extended family is in it- we have family get togethers and there is a ton of “shop talk” - my only regret is that I didn’t use my connections to get into the Bizz.

phylp phylpwrote:

Colchicine is a fascinating drug.  It was used to treat inflammation as early as 1500 BC and the first known use for the treatment for gout was in Greece in 600 AD.  It was first used as an extract from the corms of the autumn crocus plant.  Of course it's only in modern times that people were able to figure out the mechanism of action: it binds to tubulin, a very abundant structural protein which assembles to create microtubles, present in every cell. Colchicine disrupts the assembly. Microtubules are a major component of the cell cytoskeleton and critical for many functions, such as cell division, cell structure and cell movement.  It's not surprising to me that it causes diarrhea, interrupting all those functions is eventually toxic.  It's been in use in the US since before the FDA was established. To me, it's one of those drugs like aspirin that is basically grandfathered in that might not be approved today.

It's also a dangerous drug when it's taken in large amounts with intent to cause self-harm, i.e., an overdose.

Lori Milaswrote:

So my attention is back on Sleep--as Part 1 of my fact finding mission.  Listening to Alex Honnold's podcast the other day, he said "It's simple, if I want to climb harder, I have to sleep more."  

So... I'm going to read up on Sleep.  

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I am sorry to hear you are having sleep issues Lori. I can truly appreciate the frustration of not getting enough sleep, as I have struggled with insomnia since perimenopause.

I'm not sure what your sleep situations is, or if what has improved my sleep will help you, but I will offer this anecdotal account of how I improved my sleep.

While I don't have much trouble  falling asleep, I have for years been troubled with waking up around 3am, and not being able to return to sleep until around 6 am. I hear this is not uncommon. 

I have been concerned about my inadequate sleep for awhile, but recently, I read about a study which found evidence that having light in one's room from TV, or other sources can cause heart 

problems and other issues.   A few days later, while out climbing, I told my friend about the study, and she sort of pooh-poohed the idea, but admitted to having had sleep problems herself. She told

 me a list of things that she had done to help her sleep. The first was

                                   Make Your Room Dark.

 I thought that might help, since my neighbors have security lights that light up my yard and the inside of my house where I have the 

blinds open, and creep through the slats on the closed blinds. She told me I could just get some inexpensive temporary blackout blinds from the hardware store and see if it helped.

VOILA! I still wake up to go to the restroom, but I go back to sleep. It seems the security lights, rather than hormones or room temperature have been my main issue. I am a bit sad that I spent so 

many years losing so much sleep, but I am thrilled that I can finally get some better rest without having to spend 10-11 hours in bed.

I sincerely hope your search to solve your sleeping trouble is successful. Take care, Lori.