How often do you enter the “No Fall Zone”

1st 2 and sometimes 3 clips of most sport climbs. its more often than most folks realize. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

this may not seem like the macho  when in doubt run it out nonsence that many climbers like to spew but one of my pet peeves is folks that give a loose belay to a top roper. Especially at the start of the climb.  Take a 30m climb with a yo yo top rope most top ropers are in a no fall zone for the first 15ft due to belayer error.    one of my friends just got hurt exactly this way. dropped by a professional climber. 

Nick - you are correct. Especially when the leader lowers from a sport climb and you switch ends to TR. We always “sag down” to get the stretch out of the system. With a 80m rope it’s shocking how much length seems to appear! After it’s stretched a few feet of slack are ok for a follower. 

I figure I’m in “no fall” territory when my feet are off the ground!

Cory Nwrote:

What’s the no fall zone?

Did you read the thread? All of it?

Most hard sport climbing areas have warm ups in the 10+/11- range that have no fall zones because it's the warm up and the developer didn't want to waste bolts.  I can think of a few warm ups at local crags that are 6ish bolts in 90+ feet with spaces in the first 40-50 feet that a fall would be bad.   Often a budding 11 leader will come to try the route because it's sport only to find that it's not so sporty.

Something I have thought about a lot over the past few days is that I know of 2 deaths on routes I have climbed. 

Both were on the "easier" side. Both were just because the leader fell, nothing to justify a mistake that was made. One is a trad route and one is sport. 

I definitely enter the no fall zone with a pretty good understanding of the moves, the consequences, the difficulty of the route. I can definitely feel myself being pulled more towards steep sport climbing because I love that you can focus on the climbing with much less risk. But I guess the point above made me realize that sometimes things just happen. I'm not egotistical enough to think they won't happen to me, and I also am not the kind of climber going to the mountains to find my mental limits and brush as close to death as I can. 

Now I'm just ranting... but I also find when I trad climb I either am comfortable with huge runouts (because the climbing feels secure), or I'm placing a cam every 3 feet and am gripped and terrified. Gross, insecure low grade trad climbing with lots of no fall zones has less and less appeal to me. If the trad route is vertical to overhung and climbs more sporty I'm way more into it, because you can take safe falls with good gear. 

The ability to downclimb is also helpful.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

Most of Nutcracker is no fall zone. One should not be pitching off from lead pitches on that rig. Many moderate routes include lots of no fall terrain. One might consider such falls as failures in judgement. If you make a habit of it, there are surely bad results lurking in the future. For classic trad climbing, there is more no fall terrain than there is safe fall territory and often by a huge margin.

Its a very big mistake to come to moderate trad with an "it's ok to fall" mentality.

This.

It is exhausting trying to explain to new climbers that you don't want to be taking whips on gear like you do on bolts when you're only climbing moderates (specifically on granite).

I loath the paradigm, I'd your not falling your not climbing hard enough and not getting stronger...  well many moderate routes can lead to injuries.

--

@OP, most climb I get on leading are moderates which often mean there are more No Fall zones than not.  I'm curious how often we're in a no fall zone and we don't realize it.

Gumby Kingwrote:

I loath the paradigm, I'd your not falling your not climbing hard enough and not getting stronger...  well many moderate routes can lead to injuries.

Well, in most cases, it's true that if you're not falling you're not getting stronger. That's not just a paradigm, it's a not-that-hard-to-understand reality.

It's almost like the situation is more nuanced than "falling good, not falling bad" or "falling bad, not falling good". One might even say that you could push yourself to the point of falling, but only on in situations where it's safe to fall, which you will have to use your brain to evaluate.

But since this isn't a clear "pro-falling" or "anti-falling" stance, I expect to now be attacked by both sides.

I'm curious how often we're in a no fall zone and we don't realize it.

Maybe you should pay more attention while climbing to whether you're in a fall zone or not? Curiosity is a virtue, but how curious are you really, if you aren't even observing the situation you're in?

David Kwrote:

Well, in most cases, it's true that if you're not falling you're not getting stronger.

It's almost like the situation is more nuanced than "falling good, not falling bad" or "falling bad, not falling good". One might even say that you could push yourself to the point of falling, but only on in situations where it's safe to fall, which you will have to use your brain to evaluate.

But since this isn't a clear "pro-falling" or "anti-falling" stance, I expect to now be attacked by both sides.

Maybe you should pay more attention while climbing to whether you're in a fall zone or not? Curiosity is a virtue, but how curious are you really, if you aren't even observing the situation you're in?

Lolz

Yes, that paradigm is more nuanced than the saying/thought implies which is what irks me about it.

Gumby Kingwrote:

Lolz

Yes, that paradigm is more nuanced than the saying/thought implies which is what irks me about it.

What irks me about the internet is that you can't say a very simple, factually correct, true statement, like "If you aren't falling, you're probably not challenging yourself enough to improve your climbing" without providing a list of caveats and disclaimers to placate people whose primary motivation is virtue signalling rather than fostering useful discussion. I get it, you're the guardian of the safety of climbers everywhere, but maybe there are other interesting topics besides how much safer you are than everyone else.

There's no oversimplified "paradigm" or "implication" here. That's just not reality. The vast majority of the "if you aren't flying you aren't trying" crowd knows that you can't just fall wherever, and those reckless folks who don't believe that, aren't going to learn just because you tell them. People aren't saying "it's not always safe to fall" because it's bloody obvious, not because there's some widespread misconception.

I don't need to say, "Don't do this on free solo, or when there is ledge fall potential, or with an incompetent belayer, or..." every f*ing time.

Maybe you're wrapped too tight for this internet thing?

More often than I'd like and not just climbing.

The North Loop trail leading to Charleston Peak had one short snow crossing as of a couple days ago, in which the snow was steep enough, that had one fallen, they would probably continue to slide and accelerate into a boulder field. Unless they had an ice axe and experience with self arrest, which they probably wouldn't carry on such a long hike this time of year where the trail is like 99.99% clear of snow. As well there are several steep scree slopes the trail crosses, where often 20' lower there is a cliff drop off. Falling there any time of year would be no bueno.

I do some piddly ass high balling frequently, so more often than I think, but I’m not pushing the envelope in any way. 

More important is to realize what the scenario is in the moment, but given factors such as the reliability of gear and rock, who knows how often you are actually in the NFZ?

Probably I often think I’m in a worse fall situation than I am as well, getting the good ol’ heebie jeebies.

Marc801 Cwrote:

Did you read the thread? All of it?

The comment was meant in Jest, as if it didn't exist.

Anyway, I enjoy my time in the NFZ. Love some heads up climbing. It's pretty common for me to run it out on easier terrain.

David Kwrote:

Maybe you should pay more attention while climbing to whether you're in a fall zone or not? Curiosity is a virtue, but how curious are you really, if you aren't even observing the situation you're in?

I know that on many of the climbs I do I'm often in no fall zones. But I have also wondered how often I don't realize how bad a fall would actually be in some situations. There are always variables we can't control, and variables we try out best to control. When all is said and done, there are still unknowns. 

I think there are always going to be moments where we didn't realize we were in such a dangerous situation, and not for a lack of curiosity or awareness.

More gold where that came from

David Kwrote:

The vast majority of the "if you aren't flying you aren't trying" crowd knows that you can't just fall wherever, and those reckless folks who don't believe that, aren't going to learn just because you tell them. People aren't saying "it's not always safe to fall" because it's bloody obvious, not because there's some widespread misconception.

Actually, there is a widespread misconception. In my experience, most newer leaders dramatically underestimate the fall distance and so often aren't aware when they're actually in danger. This is compounded by unnecessarily long slings, unawareness of ledges, misunderstanding of rope dynamics, and a lack of focus in belaying practices.

As someone else said in the thread, most of the time it is not safe to fall on moderate trad (unless we're including 5.10/5.11 splitters as part of moderate). 

I think there are 2 different 'no fall zones' that people are talking about here. There's the I can't fall because I'm going to hit the ledge or the ground and maybe break my legs 'no fall zone'. Then there's the, falling is literally unthinkable and I'm going to die if I fall 'no fall zone'. 

Bryan wrote:

I think there are 2 different 'no fall zones' that people are talking about here. There's the I can't fall because I'm going to hit the ledge or the ground and maybe break my legs 'no fall zone'. Then there's the, falling is literally unthinkable and I'm going to die if I fall 'no fall zone'. 

They're kinda the same for me highball to 5ez ridge scramble/solo both are the same mindset of no fall. 

David Kwrote:

Maybe you should pay more attention while climbing to whether you're in a fall zone or not? Curiosity is a virtue, but how curious are you really, if you aren't even observing the situation you're in?

Technically speaking curiosity is a vice with the corresponding virtue being studiousness.  I'll get off my classical virtue ethics high horse now.....

bridgewrote:

Actually, there is a widespread misconception. In my experience, most newer leaders dramatically underestimate the fall distance and so often aren't aware when they're actually in danger. This is compounded by unnecessarily long slings, unawareness of ledges, misunderstanding of rope dynamics, and a lack of focus in belaying practices.

As someone else said in the thread, most of the time it is not safe to fall on moderate trad (unless we're including 5.10/5.11 splitters as part of moderate). 

I will admit I fell victim to this misconception. I was sport climbing a lot and following trad with a great mentor. I led some 5.6 pitches here and there on gear, and was starting to feel very confident in the 5.9 sport realm, and even sending some 5.10 sport routes outside.

I got it in my head "I am a 5.9 climber" so I felt like I could hop on any obscure, stiff ass, 5.8 old school trad climb without consequences. Took a 20+ footer on a blue DMM offwidth in a shit flake when my foot hit lichen while super pumped out not understanding how a finger jam worked.

I was very lucky my terrible piece didn't blow and I didn't severly injure myself. I left a bloody chunk of flesh in the finger crack for the next party.

I learned a very important lesson that day, and started to respect the game a lot more. I love the no fall zone these days, but dial it way back. I push my grades pretty hard with sport climbing, and am cautious about when I push trad grade.

And ice leads are always no fall situations. I could solo all the ice I lead. I treat it like a helmet on a motorcycle...you never want to use that helmet but you definitely want to have it if things go wrong.