Continue with onX Maps
Sign in with Facebook
Dewalt Powerstuds
|
There are some good Youtube vids out there. The shank or solid part of a rolled thread bolt will seem undersize. This is because the rod is squeezed while rolling and no material is removed. This cold working of the metal is one of the reasons for increased strength. Fixe used to claim that their brand wedges were rolled but all of them I have ever seen were clearly machined. |
Jim Day wrote: Sorry i missed that, yes the threads will be tougher and smoother on a rolled thread bolt which should make them more gall resistant. |
timothy fisher wrote: Which bolts are you talking about? Have you asked Fixe about their claim? |
timothy fisher wrote: "There are some good Youtube videos out there." about what? Reminds me of someone on Facebook trying to convince me that the Covid Vaccine is dangerous. I am not suggesting that machined threads are as strong as rolled threads. What I am asking for is concrete data showing that they shouldn't be used for climbing. I am asking for evidence of those bolts failing in the field. Thus far, all I have gotten is opinions and specifications. I realize that the bolts that are 5 times as expensive are a bit stronger but no one yet has been able to explain to me why the cheaper ones aren't perfectly fine. It's like a gear head trying to convince me that I am harming my vehicle by using the low octane gas........ as I drive away with 250,000 miles on my truck. |
tenesmus wrote: One more in the name of thread drift! My network filter system at work has began to block images from Mountain Project recently for some reason?? When I responded earlier today I couldn't see the pictures you had attached. That is Supai Sandstone and not limestone I'm fairly certain and if I were to throw out a guess I would say it is the Manakacha Formation of the group. I first heard of those boulders over 10 years ago from some pretty hard climbers, so I would imagine most of the stuff close to the road has been picked through if FA's are what you are into. But I also imagine there is a ton left to be explored out there. So much! So much! |
Kyran Keisling wrote: Kyran Keisling wrote: I don't have much experience with 3/8 wedge bolts, but if rolled threads are less prone to galling than cut threads, that alone seems like good enough reason to use rolled ones, even if they're more expensive. I've had one experience where a 3/8 Simpson wedge all came a little loose because I was messing with it a few months after initial installation. Basically I was curious if wedge bolts loosened after initial install, after hearing and confirming for myself that 304ss sleeve bolts loosen after install and have to be retightened a few days later. Anyway, I tried retightening a Simpson wedge bolt I had installed, and the bolt spun. With the bolt spinning in the hole and the nut welded to the threads, it was a PITA to do anything. I eventually got the bolt to retighten by wedging a chisel under the hanger to stop the bolt from spinning. Anyway, point is that removing wedge bolts when the nut is fused to the stud sucks, and if rolled threads can help reduce that, it's worth it for whoever may replace your bolts someday. Also a good reason to use 1/2" wedge bolts. |
Kyran Keisling wrote: So there is technical world out there beyond the climbing world. I live in that world every day. Show me a machined thread 3/8 bolt that meets the 25kn in shear standard and I will buy your argument. Otherwise i have no problem promoting quality over quantity where hardware and new routes are concerned. If that make you uncomfortable that may be a good thing. |
|
Show me a stainless machined 3/8th inch UL/FM listed construction bolt that has failed due to shear in an actual climbing situation not a lab and I will listen to you. otherwise you are simply talking hypothetical nonsense. same thing for 5/16ths screw links. no one who ever told me that 5/16th screw links are not strong enough for climbing use has ever produced one that failed in a climbing situation. |
Nick Goldsmith wrote: People say that about QLs? Looking at these: https://usstainless.com/hardware/quick-links-oval/stainless-steel-316-quick-link-1-4-6mm-marine-grade-for-boating-or-rigging/ The 1/4" are rated to 31 kN and the 5/16s are rated to almost 54. |
|
exactly and people still occasionally give me shit for rigging my anchors with 5/16th quick links. |
|
Jim Day - I have placed several hundred Confast anchors in the last 2 years with ZERO issues. I don't even know what galling is. It's never happened to me. I'm not saying that it isn't a possibility in the future or that it's a negative aspect of those types of anchors but I think the phenomenon is so rare that it doesn't justify a change in hardware. The issue I encounter is rock with "poofy guts". The surface is varnished and solid but the rock 3 inches deep is soft and the bolt doesn't bite. In that case, I usually can bang and pry it back out and redrill a 1/2 inch wedge. If I can't get the 3/8s out I just tap it back into the hole and fill with epoxy putty and redrill elsewhere. I also have had success with the chisel pry trick. I have also had success with torquing the hanger with an aider/sling by standing on it and then putting the wrench to it. Timothy - Now you're really channeling the Facebook Conspiracy Theorist. Seems like someone who works in the industry could provide a smidgeon of evidence. I'm not making any argument by the way. I'm asking for YOU to make an argument. I'm asking you, or anyone else in the Mountain Project world for that matter, to change my mind. If you give me good evidence I most certainly will. Don't forget that you implied that I am not a conscientious developer. Let me challenge you for the 3rd time.... Show me, with evidence, that bolts that have machined threads and are rated below 25kn have or will fail in use, otherwise bow out of the conversation and save everyone the time. |
timothy fisher wrote: I think Powerstud sd6 3/8 bolts have machined threads. Here is some testing we did on them in tension and shear. 40kn shear. |
Mr Rogers wrote: Those tests were pretty great! I can confirm that the Powerstud SD4/6 anchors produced outside of the US (China) have rolled threads up to 3/4” diameter and meet the requirements for out local seismic codes. The domestically produced version uses machined threads and does not meet code. To help answer Kyran questions, Anchorage AK, Seattle, and California have fairly stringent codes for construction in seismic areas. These codes govern concrete anchors and seem to be the closest I’ve found for climbing applications in the US, since yeah… screw the euro requirements ;) Anyways, cut threads on anchors are prohibited. The disruptions cut threads introduce into the metal structure cause each thread to be a potential crack point in shear loading. While we don’t exert nearly the same type of forces on anchors that an earthquake does the mechanics are similar. A bonus, these anchors have longer expansion clips to help mitigate failures in cracked concrete. Those same longer clips also help us as there is more surface area to grab when the rock quality is inconsistent. I’m definitely not saying those confast bolts need to be removed, and they are still unlikely to fail in good rock. However, there are better designed bolts available for similar price, since price point and not safety seem to be the determining factor for many developers. |
|
Didn’t read the whole thread… But to OP, if your still looking: They have other sizes as well. Just an FYI the Team Tough are cheaper than the 316 powerstuds. |
|
Mr. Rogers - Thank you for sharing that. The Powerstuds video showed that the machined threads of the Dewalt were more than adequate for climbing use and actually exceeded the specification listed in the literature. Am I correct in my assessment? Also, the only information I see on the spreadsheet for Confast anchors was 1/2 inch in Sandstone. There is nothing for 3/8ths in concrete. Did I miss something? C Williams - Thank you for the great explanation! I am seeing that the Hilti bolts are $300 more expensive than the Confast for 316SS. I am having trouble finding comparable priced rolled thread bolts. Could you provide a product that you feel is comparable in price that has rolled threads? Your last sentence though! "Feel that price is more important than safety". When I started developing after a 20 year hiatus I was using plated steel because I was operating with a 1990's mentality. I started buying SS and spending quite a bit more because of the quality information I was given here on MP. I am totally willing to spend more money to do it right. BUT I am still yet to be shown that the Confast anchors are unsafe and from what I saw in the video above, the machined threads were well beyond the threshold for safety. I can't imagine that the Confast bolts are that much weaker than the Dewalt. I care about the safety of people just as much as anyone but I am not going to spend money on something that I don't need. Is Premium gas better for your engine? Maybe. But I'm not going to spend the extra money on it because in my experience it isn't worth it. And it definitely doesn't mean I don't care about my truck. I hope that didn't come across as too argumentative. Sorry if it did. Edit to add - The primary reason I am engaging in this thread is because I am concerned for peoples safety, otherwise I would just install the bolts without discussion. |
Elijah S wrote: Thanks! |
C Williams wrote: I tried to find data on this... how did you come to find such info?!? |
Mr Rogers wrote: The welding company I work for does a bunch of seismic retrofit work. The codes themselves are pretty exclusive to the engineers, but we get told what to install and why. Long story short, we got supplied the cut thread, US made, Powerstud SD6’s and got 3 bolts in before the inspector came along and corrected us. Not a fun day but the more you know… |
Mr Rogers wrote: Just make sure you're not getting an open box. I got scammed on eBay once that way (open box with ~2/3 bolts swapped for cheap plated crap) and there was never a good resolution. |
Kyran Keisling wrote: So there is a thing called fatigue. We use bolts with safety factor to reduce loss of strength due to fatigue. The best rolled thread 3/8 wedge bolts have enough safety factor in hard rock to last an indefinite amount of time. In my opinion that should be our goal. We should not be looking for the cheapest wedges we can find. 2 years means nothing! If you are using 3/8 stainless Confast wedges as a permant anchor point you need to rethink what you are doing. |
