New and Experienced climbers over 50 #20

Todd Berlier wrote:

Linh Nguyen. 

A really good guy. I knew him when he repped for BD when I worked there. There was a photo of him soloing something in JT in one of the old catalogs.

Linh is a great guy, with a very solid work ethic. He worked with me as a climbing instructor for my climbing school (Vertical Adventures) in the late 90's and I got to climb with him quite a bit. Most people don't know how good Linh really was as a climber. I watched him free solo Big Moe (overhanging 11b) BITD.

Bob Gaineswrote:

LInh is a great guy, with a very solid work ethic. He worked with me as a climbing instructor for my climbing school (Vertical Adventures) in the late 90's and I got to climb with him quite a bit. Most people don't know how good Linh really was as a climber. I watched him free solo Big Moe (overhanging 11b) BITD.

All the more impressive when you realize how reachy that climb is and how short Linh is.

When I started climbing, and for many years after, a driving factor was that bolts were acceptable BUT they weren't natural so minimizing the use thereof was a desired goal.  The less the better. Once sport climbing gained traction that attitude kind of went the way of the dinosaur for the most part.

Of course, as people have pointed out there were/are other factors as well.  GU, where you can stop and drill.  If it's 6 bolts instead of 5, will I be mocked, ridiculed, derided, shamed, laughed at, and driven from the crag? (Answer: better make it 5.)  Some days you're the bug (want bolts), some days you're the windshield (want runouts).  The reasons come from all over the place.

Guy - Sorry to hear you got beat up climbing.  Pine Creek?  

I seem to have rehabbed quite well from the hip surgery.  Enough time under the belt that I'm working Gorge FA projects.  I would say I'm very close to pre-surgery levels, I don't hurt like I used to, and it's still getting better.  It's looking more and more like it was the right choice.

Most people don't know how good Linh really was as a climber.

Is Linh still climbing?   I hope so.  The reason I ask is it sounds like past tense in the sentence - maybe just the wording.  Yes, a good climber.  

Darrell nails it. Ego almost always had a say. Will i be  thought  less of for  putting a  bolt here.  It  really  boils down to  boys trying to get laid. I am in the  unique  position of having a Euro for a  partner  so  the  more  bolts I  place  the  more  excited  she gets.  Now I have to  lobby for  less bolts so that the  other  boys  won't  ridicule  me....

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Darrell nails it. Ego almost always had a say. Will i be  thought  less of for  putting a  bolt here.  It  really  boils down to  boys trying to get laid. I am in the  unique  position of having a Euro for a  partner  so  the  more  bolts I  place  the  more  excited  she gets.  Now I have to  lobby for  less bolts so that the  other  boys  won't  ridicule  me....

Well, that settles it.  I am going to have to start putting up my own routes, Lori-style.    If I could depend upon a solid bolt every 3-4 feet or so, I'd consider leading. 

On Run For Your Life I was asking myself... what? was there an aluminum shortage in 1978?  Couldn't afford just one more bolt to prevent cataclysmic death?  Apparently not.    

Man, the more I see of this place the more I am amused, impressed, astonished.  There's a life force in these rocks, and in those original routes.  And may I say... boys.  I see the best of maleness out there.  Laughter, hijinks, competition and in many cases unbelievable athleticism.  I am thinking of my own sons here, and I would rather have risked their lives on this, than on any other option they had.  

I feel like I know Jeremy well enough by now that it is not disloyal to say something about him.  I think his parents are smart... they've encouraged their sons to live their dreams.  Jeremy's brother surfs, maybe hoping to do so professionally. Jeremy climbs.  I was raised to be thinking ... high school, college, career.  How are you going to earn your keep?  Marriage. Kids.  If I hit my mid-20's and was still screwing around well... my family just would not tolerate that.  I have no fears that Jeremy will die a bum.  I have never seen a healthier, more solid kid.  His smile is irreplaceable, and I don't see that smile in city dwelling kids. 

Re. Run For Your Life... Jeremy took the traditional route up on lead.  There were a few problems when I tried it... I think I could have worked it out eventually.  That step (above) there took a little more oomph than I had.  But we later found a more direct route off the deck.  One hard crimp, one dicey smear... but then you're golden. 

Bob had mentioned the very top of the route being a challenging few moves.  I did get stuck for a minute and couldn't see how to make the last two yards.  Jeremy yelled up "Lori, match hands on the left crack sidepull."  That made it easy.  

Houser and I always planned to not run out more than 15 feet between bolts.  We wanted other people to do our routes and didn't want them to be too dangerous.  And yet we ended up with routes like EBGBs and Good to the Last Drop.  So in spite of trying to put in plenty of bolts there were still occassions were it was not reasonable to stop and place bolts and the routes ended up run out.  It's not just one thing that will determine how a route gets bolted.

You always have the  option to  add bolts  once you get the rope up there. 

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

You always have the  option to  add bolts  once you get the rope up there. 

Oh boy, you are an instigator today, Nick!!!    

Climbing being that Type B fun for me, today I'm having the afterglow and enjoyment from yesterday where I could not quite grab it en route.  I don't know how route-dependent your climbs are there in the East... we call 'em out by name here.  

It's only just now that I'm really able to pay attention to bolt placements and try to fathom what was in the mind's of the FAs.  On a top rope I never had to think about it except to admire the vision.  Jan just mentioned Good To The Last Drop which took a long time for me to get to because frankly, no one felt good about leading it and setting up a TR for me.  In fact, it was one of the most enjoyable routes I've climbed to date.  It was just pure fun and very memorable.  So why does no one climb it?  Looks like it has to do with safety, bolting... quite the drop if you fall.  

And now I am reviewing what's left of my Houser list.  Some I will never be able to climb.  Some I can still try over the next few years.  

• Grand Canyon Donkey Trail
• Exit Stage Right
• Vagmarken Buttress
• Middle Age Crazy  
• Overpowered by Funk
• Ben
• Rocky Road
• EBGBs  (need to finish it)
• Dog Day Afternoon  (need to finish it)
• Desert Delirium
• Peter Eater Pumpkin Eater
• Goof Proof Roof  -  nope
• Welcome to Joshua Tree
• Bottle In Front of Me
• Willard
• Jugular Vein
• Short Cake

No instigating  just the  facts.   When you are doing  ground up  Fa's the  first ascent  gets the rope  to the top  but  it  might  not have been pretty.  You  probably  hung on a hook or a  bird break  to drill, you might have  climbed  through a  section that  should have a  bolt.  Perhaps you  drilled  1/4 inch  bolts  on the  fa with the  intention to replace them  with  3/8ths bolts.  Possibly your  clafs cramped up and you  held on to the drill  bit a bit  vigorously  to shake out those  screaming  claves. Now the  rope is up the  pitch and you  have an  anchor in but you have to  climb it again to get it clean.  This is the  golden  opportunity to fix any  mistakes you  might have made and  try to  leave a masterpiece.  I  bring  up  my  second and  we discuss  how  it  climbs and  what if any  changes  should  be  made to the fixed gear.  We might  replace a knife  blade with a bolt.  Possibly  move a bolt to a better  clipping  spot or  possibly  add a bolt.  Then  we free  climb the pitch  for the FFA.  If you  want to be a dick about it you  leave the  runout and for  good  measure you  back  clean  your  knife  blades on the  rappel  so that the next  party  will think you are brave and you get your expensive  pitons  back to use on the next climb. 

Nick, while that is how it is done today, that is NOT how it was done in the 70s and 80s when it was done ground up without aid.  You climbed and put 1/4" bolts in.  You never changed the route from that.  If you could actually stand there long enough to put a bolt in then by god the rest of the world could at least clip them on the way by.

Jan Mcwrote:

Nick, while that is how it is done today, that is NOT how it was done in the 70s and 80s when it was done ground up without aid.  You climbed and put 1/4" bolts in.  You never changed the route from that.  If you could actually stand there long enough to put a bolt in then by god the rest of the world could at least clip them on the way by.

You're right Jan. Ethics were stringent back in the 70's and 80's at Joshua Tree. I remember Bachar chopped a bolt not because it was placed on rappel, but because the first ascencionist had toproped the route before he placed the bolt on the lead! And then we had all the bolt wars in the 90's.

How times have changed. I did a new bolted route at Joshua Tree a couple weeks ago (I had to get a permit form the Park Service), then went back and added a bolt to make it a little safer and more user-friendly, since I know it'll end up being a well-traveled, popular route.

It was pretty easy to hand-drill a 1/4-inch bolt in Joshua Tree granite from a good stance, but not so easy to drill hand-drill a 3/8 or 1/2-inch diameter bolt, which is the modern standard. In hard granite like Yosemite it's torture on the calves to hand-drill a 3/8-inch bolt from a marginal stance.

Lori- good job on RFYL! If you want bolts every 5-7 feet HOLCOMB is taylor made for you. No sharp edges to cut your fingers, it’s mostly steep knob and edge climbing. Nothing is really hard. And your like 200 yards from your car. Good on weekdays.

“Guy - Sorry to hear you got beat up climbing.  Pine Creek?” Thanks Darrell. I hurt my back 5 years ago and I couldn’t hardly walk, let alone climb much. I was able to climb vertical- big hold- climbing on TR up until the surgery. Post surgery the pain is mostly gone now but I’m extremely weak in the lower 1/2 of me. 2 years of PT and I’m slowly getting better. Going to Pine Creek I knew I would get a spanking along the way. The 5.7 crack climbs are fun- but- we ended up on 5.10 - my fingers got split and even today I can’t grab things without a little “ouch” factor… bouldered some at SP yesterday. The “youth” were doing hard classic problems- “Crowd Pleaser”, “Yabo Arete”, and others… so I got excited and went and tried a bunch of stuff. Getting back on the horse is difficult.

The old days and bolts. Nobody wanted the “Other Boys” to call you and your line weak. So one tried hard very hard.
Today I’m with Nick, for the last 25 years I have embraced sport climbing and everything that goes with it. Rap-bolting, heavy cleaning of choss- but no glue or hold chopping- I leave that to Tripper. Many times after hook-bolting I’ve had the talk with partner and we decided to drop in a few extra bolts just to keep it safe and more fun.

Sorry for the long rant

Happy trails to all!

Guy Keeseewrote:

If you want bolts every 5-7 feet HOLCOMB is taylor made for you. No sharp edges to cut your fingers, it’s mostly steep knob and edge climbing. Nothing is really hard. And your like 200 yards from your car. Good on weekdays.
Today I’m with Nick, for the last 25 years I have embraced sport climbing and everything that goes with it. Rap-bolting, heavy cleaning of choss- but no glue or hold chopping- I leave that to Tripper. Many times after hook-bolting I’ve had the talk with partner and we decided to drop in a few extra bolts just to keep it safe and more fun.

A bolt every body length is FRIENDLY.  Sounds like I wlll like the climbing at HOLCOMB.  How might I find it the next time I am in the area?

Agree on making it safer and more fun.  I like visiting new areas.  Unless the area is known for necky/dodgy leads and I am expecting them, solid rock and reasonable protection make for a much more favorable first impression than otherwise.

Lori Milaswrote:

His smile is irreplaceable, and I don't see that smile in city dwelling kids. 

Good for Jeremy. I am sure he is a happy, well balanced, high achiever but I have to call out the overly broad stereotype used here.
I started to think, yeah those poor South Chicago and East LA kids until I realized I had fallen into the same trap.
The human brain has constraints and with evolution it has adapted to generalization, compartmentalization, and shortcuts in order to simplify/accelerate processing. In this complex modern world, there are so many nuances that that generalization does not paint an accurate picture.

Keep cranking!

S. Neohwrote:

Good for Jeremy. I am sure he is a happy, well balanced, high achiever but I have to call out the overly broad stereotype used here.
I started to think, yeah those poor South Chicago and East LA kids until I realized I had fallen into the same trap.
The human brain has constraints and with evolution it has adapted to generalization, compartmentalization, and shortcuts in order to simplify/accelerate processing. In this complex modern world, there are so many nuances that that generalization does not paint an accurate picture.

Keep cranking!

Just happened to be logged on and saw this.  I already found the worm in my own theory... the kid next door to me, and many many other local kids, also have such huge emotional and physical hurdles. My next door kid sits in his dark room most of every day and whenever I see him I feel dread.  This is the type who eventually succumbs.  His dad is deeply depressed and withdrawn, the kid is, too.  We live 5 miles from one of the best climbing/outdoor places in the world, and the kid has seen it once.  There's poverty here.  Very little college-bound education.  Plenty of drugs and easy illegal behavior.  

So... maybe it's the parents I should have been complimenting (and was).  And I think about this alot, since I fought to the death for my kids, but could not win all the battles.  I knew what they needed, but I couldn't get it for them so much of the time.  Everywhere I looked in our manicured upscale neighborhood were signs with the circle and cross through them... 

And the same neighbors would demand laws and incarceration for kids who couldn't go with the flow. 

At any rate, to see a wholesome smile on a young man, that sense of being loved within a big family, laughter, very little anxiety... I take my hat off to the parents who have united together to make that happen.  

As to your previous comment:  "Agree on making it safer and more fun.  I like visiting new areas.  Unless the area is known for necky/dodgy leads and I am expecting them, solid rock and reasonable protection make for a much more favorable first impression than otherwise."  Uh-oh.    

S. Neohwrote:

A bolt every body length is FRIENDLY.  Sounds like I wlll like the climbing at HOLCOMB.  How might I find it the next time I am in the area?

https://www.mountainproject.com/area/105805238/holcomb-valley-pinnacles

It's mostly a summer climbing area.  Up at the elevation of Big Bear Lake.  Certainly not a destination area but lovely for those hot SoCal days when you can't get out of town and head to the Sierra. Very pretty, dry, piney environment.  Rattlesnakes!   

S Neoh, am I remembering you mentioning you go sport climbing in Greece?  I did a trip to Leonidio in 2019 (Brandt was there) and was amazed how close together the bolts were.  Certainly encourages pushing grades.

Lori Milaswrote:

Just happened to be logged on and saw this.  I already found the worm in my own theory... the kid next door to me, and many many other local kids, also have such huge emotional and physical hurdles. My next door kid sits in his dark room most of every day and whenever I see him I feel dread.  This is the type who eventually succumbs.  His dad is deeply depressed and withdrawn, the kid is, too.  We live 5 miles from one of the best climbing/outdoor places in the world, and the kid has seen it once.  There's poverty here.  Very little college-bound education.  Plenty of drugs and easy illegal behavior.  

So... maybe it's the parents I should have been complimenting (and was).  And I think about this alot, since I fought to the death for my kids, but could not win all the battles.  I knew what they needed, but I couldn't get it for them so much of the time.  Everywhere I looked in our manicured upscale neighborhood were signs with the circle and cross through them... 

And the same neighbors would demand laws and incarceration for kids who couldn't go with the flow. 

At any rate, to see a wholesome smile on a young man, that sense of being loved within a big family, laughter, very little anxiety... I take my hat off to the parents who have united together to make that happen.  

As to your previous comment:  "Agree on making it safer and more fun.  I like visiting new areas.  Unless the area is known for necky/dodgy leads and I am expecting them, solid rock and reasonable protection make for a much more favorable first impression than otherwise."  Uh-oh.    

Lori, I have no idea why it made me think of it, but that NO sign you posted?

Reminded me that there were often a few horses in the back of the drive in theater, in the smallish town I grew up in. :-)

Got out bouldering today! Super nice day out, it finally feels like maybe we'll have a bit of spring before the hot dry summer they're predicting slams in.

Dunno if my friend will send a pic, but I did at least top out, twice, on V0s. I also enjoyed just messing around, on the lower part of some boulders, to see what might go, on what holds I found to play with. The younger friend, found that rather refreshing. Just....climbing. Not even trying to get anywhere. She kept saying, "oh! That looks fun!" I said, "yup! It may be only a move or two, but, at 65? I can most definitely enjoy even single moves!" She then commented on how focused they had been on accomplishing stuff, always always doing the sit start, etc. 

Sometimes?

Just lay on the bare back of the horse, on a hot hot summer night, with your friends, under the stars.

Best, Helen

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

No instigating  just the  facts.   When you are doing  ground up  Fa's the  first ascent  gets the rope  to the top  but  it  might  not have been pretty.  You  probably  hung on a hook or a  bird break  to drill, you might have  climbed  through a  section that  should have a  bolt.  Perhaps you  drilled  1/4 inch  bolts  on the  fa with the  intention to replace them  with  3/8ths bolts.  Possibly your  clafs cramped up and you  held on to the drill  bit a bit  vigorously  to shake out those  screaming  claves. Now the  rope is up the  pitch and you  have an  anchor in but you have to  climb it again to get it clean.  This is the  golden  opportunity to fix any  mistakes you  might have made and  try to  leave a masterpiece.  I  bring  up  my  second and  we discuss  how  it  climbs and  what if any  changes  should  be  made to the fixed gear.  We might  replace a knife  blade with a bolt.  Possibly  move a bolt to a better  clipping  spot or  possibly  add a bolt.  Then  we free  climb the pitch  for the FFA.  If you  want to be a dick about it you  leave the  runout and for  good  measure you  back  clean  your  knife  blades on the  rappel  so that the next  party  will think you are brave and you get your expensive  pitons  back to use on the next climb. 

Despite my strictness at the time, I added a bolt (maybe two?) to my route Seamstress, up at Courtright Reservoir. It’s a very steep slab with a perfect seam, .12b or so.

I was scouting the base of Voyager Rock, which at the time had very few routes, with my first wife, Julie Lazar. We came across this line, and I was very excited. If it were at Suicide Rock? OMG. I got straight to work, and by the end of the day I’d placed four well-spaced bolts from hooks. The trick to this is to get the bolts in the right spots, not always where the best hooking is. So, you get on the dicey hook and keep your mouth shut so If the thing pings off you don’t get your teeth broken. Anyway, it looked easier from my highest bolt to the top.

I came back the following day for the lead. I climbed well to the fourth bolt and kept going. It was a nice runout after the hard climbing below. Until it wasn’t. I found a last hard move when I was looking at a horrendous fall. I squeaked out the move and went on up to the top. When I got down Julie was visibly upset. She knew my climbing well and could tell I was at the edge. She said I would have decked. I’m not so sure about that, but...

The following summer I brought some friends up to show off my handiwork. I think Jan was there too? And someone else, maybe Kamps? I think that Bob only made one Courtright trip, and this may have been it. Jan can sort me out on all the details.

Herb looked up at it and questioned my veracity. “It’s not finished.” I told him how it came down. I think maybe Julie was there and testified for me? Herb said he wouldn’t lead it, but since I dragged them all the way up there I was obligated to. Sh*t. I offered to scramble up and set up a TR. 

Herb told me to get up there, rap down, and add a bolt or two. I wasn’t into it. I moped around for a bit and saw that it was the right choice. It’s still a bold pitch, but at least it’s not insane. It’s not for everyone, but not every climb needs to be.

https://www.mountainproject.com/route/117594446/seam-stress

I got some beautiful pictures of that epic climb.  I'm surprised that my reaction to seeing these is vanity and disappointment --so many feelings about being 'old'.  Total surprise that this would be my response!  So, the part of being a 'climber over 50' that I keep forgetting is that it seems to involve all kinds of aging problems, and for me, thorny medical problems, and just plain vanity problems like crepey skin and slack muscles.  The truth is, Tuesday was the worst day and the best day of my climbing life.  There was no way I would cancel that date with Jeremy but I was not well.  At all.  

I should be stoked (and I am) but trying to sift through medical shit while continuing to climb is hard.  On the balance, climbing has been a boon to my health... sitting around at home is not a good option.  I had told my doc that I climb, but she imagined hiking around on rocks.  I finally sent her a climbing pic and she texted me:  "OMG. You are amazing rock climber!  I couldn't imagine that your health condition would allow you to do this.  But you are awesome...we will take care of you and fix these problems."  She has a better idea of who I am outside her office.  We are dealing with all the endocrine hormones, thyroid, adrenal... and the consequent weight gains.  Insulin. Fatigue. 

This morning I'm just pissed, sad... but then I do have to remind myself, it could have been cancer, it could be something that would be so much more devastating.  Just hang in there. 

And also (consoling self), who gets to do this?  I mean... what happened to gratitude?  How many 68 year old women have been on this rock?  It takes a village to climb.  The village has been there all the way.  Also, a pat on my own back for all the hard work getting to this place.  

So I guess it's a fitting context for RFYL.  

Besides just a glow from climbing this beautiful rock... if I gained any useful knowledge it would be to increase my hip flexibility so I can get closer to the wall.  That should be no problem with so much ballet history... I just haven't done it.  

I asked Jeremy "Since you climb 5.14's, was this a walk in the park for you?"  He said "Nooooo. This is HARD.  The reason is because it's dangerous."  He said he could not relax at all, because any fall could be so consequential.  He did not just sashay up this route. He really took his  time.    

I did throw on my Dave's Not Here tshirt because, well, he wasn't. 

By the way Lori, take a look at Jeremy's posture on the rock and the look at yours.  Your posture makes you work much harder than you need to.  This is a large part of the key to climbing harder thin face, not pulling harder but standing correctly.