hands off brake strand belays with a gri gri

Hey, so I keep seeing climbers who know what they're doing belay with hands off a gri gri when it's locked. Went out with a guy leading 12s yesterday while i can barely do 10s, and in my books that was pretty shit belaying by him, but I keep seeing people go hands free while the cam is locked. I think the person was top roping too, so technically possible for the cam to unlock as they start to climbing and his hand wouldn't be on a break strand but maybe I'm overly paranoid. How common is it, and would you consider calling the person out on it, or is it actually safe?

Why do you want to know what I or anyone else thinks? F.Y.I. yes.

Not at all cool.  Call them out.  Simple overhand on bite on break strand is prerequisite for hands-free if ur belaying me.

Belaying is like sex. Everyone thinks they're good at it, and has an opinion on how others are doing it. Whatever those 2 dudes consent to do is fine. If a partner tries to pressure you into something you're uncomfortable with, that's a different story.

You're not allowed to tell anyone how to do it, but you are allowed to have an open minded conversation with them. Just be honored they let you watch.

If the rope is beefier than about 9.5 in my experience and you have 2+ ft of tail out, then mechanically, the gri gri can be hands free while your partner is dogging or you are hanging on a fixed line. I learned how to belay on an atc and will keep a hand on the strand when someone is climbing, but it really isn’t neccessary if the above conditions are filled when the climber is weighting the rope.

also, it’s Brake Strand, not Break Strand

Jim Tittwrote:

Why do you want to know what I or anyone else thinks? F.Y.I. yes.

Because if it's actually safe to do, but people don't do it because Petzl says to not do it for legal reasons, like stopper knots after figure 8 at the gym. Or whether there actually is a chance of it disengaging when locked. I'm by the textbook kinda guy but I keep running into people who think it's fine to do, so if enough people say it's fine and gri gri doesn't disengage I'm open minded enough to change my view on it. 

One never takes their brake hand off the rope.  Period.

While I'm generally in the "never drop the brake strand" camp, a locked and untended Grigri is fairly low on the list in the greater pantheon of sketchy belaying practices.

Kosta Damuswrote:

Because if it's actually safe to do, but people don't do it because Petzl says to not do it for legal reasons, like stopper knots after figure 8 at the gym. Or whether there actually is a chance of it disengaging when locked. I'm by the textbook kinda guy but I keep running into people who think it's fine to do, so if enough people say it's fine and gri gri doesn't disengage I'm open minded enough to change my view on it. 

There you meet the problem, Petzl have said various things over the years so if you are an oldie it's perfectly safe because they said so, otherwise it isn't. Roughly 40 years old is the dividing line.

I use a gri gri to clean and bolt routes.  I go hands off every time, and have been since the first gri gris came out.

The only time I’ve ever seen one not engage in a fall is when there is a ton of rope drag, and the fall in such cases is in slow motion.  

Best to keep the brake hand on the brake strand at all times. Sometimes I cheat when the Grigri cam is locked (partner hangdogging) by stepping on the brake strand with my foot until they're ready to climb again

Noel Z wrote:

Me: "Hey orthographically anal John, put you damn hand on the brake strand."
John: "The rope is beefier than about 9.5 with a 2+ ft of tail out so mechanically your fine"
Me: "Take and lower. Good riddance!"

To the OP. Your going to hear any number of crazy explanations which contravene your instincts and the manufacturers advise. Some people are stupid. Some are bio-mechanically challenged. So just need to feel superior. Who cares what anyone else says. Pick your stance. Find a partner with a similar one to YOU.  Your be glad you did when you see others tooling around and you're not involved.

I appreciate the targeted trolling, or maybe just ironic english errors from being a non-native speaker (you are german, ja?). Seems that is your thing based on your profile. For reference though, I do keep my hand on the brake strand unless I am on a fixed line taking photos, cleaning/developing routes, etc.

I agree with you though, I generally like partners with similar risk tolerances and who use systems and practices I am comfortable with. 

It's poor practice, but empirically safe enough. Honestly, a completely hands free grigri is probably safer than the 95th percentile of ATC users giving it their typical effort.

Incog Nicowrote:

Best to keep the brake hand on the brake strand at all times. Sometimes I cheat when the Grigri cam is locked (partner hangdogging) by stepping on the brake strand with my foot until they're ready to climb again

if you did this on my rope, we would have words.

you don't step on ropes on purpose...ever...

Kateryna Petrovawrote:

It's poor practice, but empirically safe enough. Honestly, a completely hands free grigri is probably safer than the 95th percentile of ATC users giving it their typical effort.

This.  I like my belayer using a gri gri because they can be dead and will still catch me. Good luck with a dead belayer using an ATC.

Grigri is totally bomber without your hands on brake strand. Tons of people use a Grigri to lead rope solo. They take whips and the device catches them totally hands free. Therefore, taking hand off brake strand while top roping is totally fine. 

Ward Smithwrote:

This.  I like my belayer using a gri gri because they can be dead and will still catch me. Good luck with a dead belayer using an ATC.

Alive and attentive who keeps hand on rope using any device belayer > dead gri gri belayer > inattentive careless using any device belayer. If I knew my belayer was nothing more than a gri gri attached to a lump of flesh, then I'd prefer to just TR solo, where, incidentally, I use 2 devices. I thought gri gris were out and belaying with a microtrax was in now though... 

Jim Tittwrote:

There you meet the problem, Petzl have said various things over the years so if you are an oldie it's perfectly safe because they said so, otherwise it isn't. Roughly 40 years old is the dividing line.

I just turned 40 so I'm conflicted!

Noel Z wrote:

 Find a partner with a similar one to YOU.  Your be glad you did when you see others tooling around and you're not involved.

Is that why you post about TR soloing so much?

If the climber is dogging, and the grigri is locked, tie a bite knot before going hands free. Whats best if the climber is going bolt to bolt is if the climber fifis into a draw to unweight the rope (improves rope longevity and belayer genital circulation). In those situations, the belayer can go hands free with a grigri, give some slack, tie a backup and take a seat maybe in a different order. The climber is “indirect” but still on belay bc the system is closed with a backup knot and the belayer never takes the climber off. It is a safe practice for sport climbing, but not tying the stopper knot is complacent if somehow the grigri cam gets disengaged due to rock fall, belayer mistake or some other occurrence. 

If you're too stupid to figure out how to use a grigri safely, God help your partners.