Is a safety knot on your figure-eight a necessity?

Greg Dwrote:

Oh great. Another woman that thinks a few more inches is better.

Hilarious! Sorry not sorry if I bruised your ego. 

Greg Dwrote:

Oh great. Another woman that thinks a few more inches is better.

This is misogyny. Please update your software.

You know a finishing knot is dumb when even the safety obsessed rope access people say its completely unnecessary, just dress your knots and all will be fine. For those who had their gig 8s come undone, you either majorly screwed up or completely neglected to dress the knot. 

Lynn Hill was climbing using a bowline, she went in top down(which is a shit way to tie in), got distracted after passing through and didn't tie anything, she lent back at the top and plummeted straight down, its amazing she survived. 

that guy named sebwrote:

You know a finishing knot is dumb when even the safety obsessed rope access people say its completely unnecessary, just dress your knots and all will be fine. For those who had their gig 8s come undone, you either majorly screwed up or completely neglected to dress the knot. 

Lynn Hill was climbing using a bowline, she went in top down(which is a shit way to tie in), got distracted after passing through and didn't tie anything, she lent back at the top and plummeted straight down, its amazing she survived. 

This is why it's "check your knots" not "tie extra knots"

Aaron Olsonwrote: Recently, I was climbing some multi-pitch routes with a friend who learned everything he knows about climbing in Europe. He insists that a safety knot is not only excessive, but is a detriment to the integrity of the figure-eight follow-through, especially with knots like the Yosemite finish as they intersect the "perfect form" of the figure-eight. Though I'm positive that a safety does NOT ruin the integrity of the figure-eight if tied properly, does his claim of it not being a necessity hold any merit? Given that I have experienced first-hand a figure-eight partially untying itself after a few pitches while using a brand new rope, and that most gyms in the country would fail your belay test if you forgot to tie one, I would say no. I feel that when you share a rope with someone on a multi-pitch route, it is important to know that their knot is tied safely and properly; and with redundancy. I'd like to see an argument to the contrary.

It was always my understanding that the follow through on a figure 8 knot added a strand to the knotting system, making them stronger... I can attest when I was new to climbing and at the rock gym I got distracted tying in one time and tied my figure 8 wrong. On my lower down my knot started pulling tighter and tighter, realizing like 50' up I had made the ultimate mistake the yosemite follow through got sucked into the 4 looping strands of my bad tied knot and saved me from taking a huge grounder. I'm not sure if that's a standard thing or just luck but since then I definitely always use the follow through. 

plus it allows you to dog all the way to your harness/tie in loop, not where the safety knot ends. Those couple/several inches could make a world of difference of energy conservation if youre projecting and hangdogging a lot

I tie off the end of my Figure of eight because I like a few inches of tail & don't like it whipping me in the face. I've been climbing a little over forty years & I sailed for years. I have seen a figure of eight work itself partially loose. Bowline or figure of eight for climbing are about the same. There is a reason why you use a bowline and not a figure of eight to tie into sails. 

I don’t waste time with backup knots.  And rather than risking not seeing the way I f’d up my knot,  I install these clamps to ensure rope ends don’t slip out while I hang dog and thrutch my way up climbs.

I’ve given up trying to outrun my own stupidity and just play it safe now ;)

most all gyms require a barrel knot above the figure eight bc it makes it easy for staff to verify if customers have tied in

this practice makes its way to the crags

Learn how to properly dress and tie your figure 8 and be done with it.

If you’ve been climbing more than ten years and can’t figure out how to plan out slack start working on that. You can feel the amount of tail you need by how thick the rope is. Stop guessing, do it right. 

I & all most everyone were tying back knots long before gyms existed.

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

Do you mean for a bowline or just in general? Because there is absolutely no difference when forming a closed loop like the figure 8. In fact, if you go top down and miss your bottom hard point, that would be preferable than going bottom up and missing your top hard point. 

In general for the sole reason that if you did so a Lynn Hill and forget to tie your knot after threading your end, you're more likely to lose the rope hopefully preventing a 30m plummet to the ground.

Its preferred to be just into the swami yes but neither will kill you if you're wearing a correctly sized harness. 

Webfootwrote:

Did you clip something into the loop formed by the figure-8, ring loading it?  In ring load the knot will roll until the tail pulls through.  This is a known failure mode of the 8.  This is one reason to keep the loop small; you do not want to allow for it to catch over a horn, carabiner, whatever as you fall, which will produce a large shock and a ring load.

Presumably ring loading is quite possible when belaying from the tie in loop as is common, at least in UK. https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/belaying_-_rope_loop_or_belay_loop-1129 Then a barrel knot would be a good idea. A disadvantage with the barrel knot as a stopper is that if it is not tight against the fig 8 it would be possible to mistakenly clip a belay device into the loop between the knots which would be disastrous.

A main reason for preferring the fig 8 over some bowline variation is that it is easy to buddy check whereas probably most of my climbing acquaintances don't know how to tie/check even the basic bowline let alone its variations. 

Incidentally backthread someone remarked that nobody ever uses just the basic bowline. I still do when it is purely for use as a waist tie eg short top rope climbs. I'm certainly NOT recommending either this or climbing without a harness etc but just saying.

Not Hobo Greg wrote:

That is some dumb logic, relying on the rope falling out to let you know you made a mistake, when if you just did an ordinary partner check, you’d easily catch that. 

You might have had a point of partner checks were not also dumb. 

that guy named sebwrote:

You might have had a point of partner checks were not also dumb. 

Regarding partner checks, I say you're in charge of your own ass. I'll remind partners to check their own ass but ultimately it's on them. In a scenario where my ass depends on their ass then I will check both of our asses to make sure my ass is safe.

"Partner checks are dumb" YOU JUST CAN'T HELP STUPID!!!

that guy named sebwrote:

You might have had a point of partner checks were not also dumb. 

I'm just going to assume you're having a laugh. 

Sometimes you tie a figure 8 when no one is around.

but yeah bowlines are weird. Not weird if you don’t fuck em up tho. Lesson is, don’t fuck up. As for idiots? They might need some heuristics. 

Victor Machtelwrote:

I'm just going to assume you're having a laugh. 

If I trust my self enough to solo something scary, set up anchors, perform a rescue, etc, etc, I should be able to trust my self to tie in. it is neither practical or possible to have a partner check every time you tie in, check your shit, check your partners shit, check out the guide book, check out the route, be observant in general and you won't kill yourself or your partner.

But at no point will I be saying "hold on let me check your knot" with someone I trust. 

Its just like driving a car, you do it enough the number are against you, you will get into an accident but I wouldn't check to make sure everyone has their seat belts on before I start driving unless they were a child. 

that guy named sebwrote:

If I trust my self enough to solo something scary, set up anchors, perform a rescue, etc, etc, I should be able to trust my self to tie in. it is neither practical or possible to have a partner check every time you tie in, check your shit, check your partners shit, check out the guide book, check out the route, be observant in general and you won't kill yourself or your partner.

But at no point will I be saying "hold on let me check your knot" with someone I trust. 

Its just like driving a car, you do it enough the number are against you, you will get into an accident but I wouldn't check to make sure everyone has their seat belts on before I start driving unless they were a child. 

At nuclear power plants, they will often perform "independent verification" of an important task. A second person will confirm that the task performed was performed correctly. Similar to the quality control inspection "holdpoint." An inspector will confirm that it was done correctly, before the work can continue. One could argue, "but that's different," In a way it is different, and in a way it's similar. Quality control is performed in many industries, so it's not always as critical as working at a nuke.

The partner check is your call and your partner's call, but I think the check takes little effort and could prevent a serious accident.

 Why double check it ain't like we do anything important. It may be a little dangerous but it's not important so who cares? Personally, well I am tired of seeing other people broken up. I really do not want to have to go up & bring another body off of a wall. I don't want to show up at a beautiful climbing place only to hear the sound of someone smashing on the ground. I've seen enough thank you I'll check my partner's gear!