What is the most average crag?

The Pit in Flagstaff is a top contender for this title. 

Mostly short routes with a good handful of taller routes. Most routes are 1 to 2 stars-ish with a small handful of 3+ star routes. Sort of 50/50 on polished vs textured. Crowded at times, but not normally completely packed. It's a pretty spot, but the limestone itself is kind of ugly. The grades are pretty all over the place from 5.7 up to 5.13-. It's climbable year round, but you are really only going to get perfect conditions in the shoulder seasons in the late afternoon. 

Yeah, it is a super average crag.

Joshua Tree.   

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Naw. It has one of the most iconic photographed routes in the united states, I think it has the most easily viewed 15a in the country, and has a hard open project people actually try. 

If you filter all of mountain project by route stars and single pitch, often at least one rumney route  will make the top 50 by grade (at least for 5.11a-12b). The only crags that come up more regularly are Indian Creek, the red, and the new. 

For sure it has a few gems in terms of pure difficulty/movement, but they're largely above 95% of climbers' pay grades. And I think the only reason routes there get into top user ranking lists is because New Englanders have Stockholm Syndrome for our crags. To be fair, it's better than many NE crags (which would fall into the "crap" category). Some of the climbing is good, the lines are ok but mostly not inspiring, the setting is "nice" and the tick/mosquito/mud/snow/rain/humid/heat seasons make it hard to enjoy more than a handful of days there in the year.

Don't get me wrong, I have had many good days at Rumney but on average it's an average destination.

JCMwrote:

Climbing here last weekend actually is what inspired this thread. We commented throughout the day that this was just a perfectly average crag, for all the reasons you mention. That said, we had a great time and really enjoyed climbing there. There's a lot of fun to be had at an average crag.

This raises an interesting question: How good is the average crag? Where do we place the quality meter when seeking average?  The subjectivity makes it tricky. But I think its fair to say that some areas are too good to get mentioned as the average crag. ORG is, IMO an above average sport crag and a legitimate destination area, so doesn't belong on this list.  Whereas North Table Mountain just kinda sucks - decidedly below average.

I think the average crag is like an "average" California snow year--pretty dang awesome! I always have a great time at the Emeralds. And like average snow years, I wish we had more crags like it!

Big Redwrote:

New Englanders have Stockholm Syndrome for our crags. 

I just spit out my drink

Ryan Never climbs wrote:

most of yosemite is fairly average 

your opinion is wrong 

Bobby Twrote:

Horseshoe Canyon Ranch, Arkansas. Don't get me wrong, I do love it.... but.....

The rock is fantastic, but the same quality can be found at a couple dozen other locales ranging from 20 minutes away to 4 hours away. Mostly sport, some trad. Some tall, some not. Some hard, most not. A fair amount of bouldering, but again, the same quality and quantity can be found nearby. 

Sharma put it on the map in the mid 00s and the only reasons it is still a "destination" is the shear quantity of routes in a single location. All that said, given the style in which it is being developed/stewarded, and the number of people there any given weekend..... it may as well be a gym.....

I'm going to push back on this one.

You said HCR is mediocre for the following reasons:

• High quality rock
• High density of climbing 
• Bouldering, sport climbing and trad available 
• Easy, moderate and difficult climbing available 
• Both tall, and short routes/boulders
• More high quality, high density climbing within a stone's throw of the crag

I think the only thing that HCR doesn't have is multi-pitch (not really, at least).  Otherwise, all of those descriptors could be used for Bishop, Red Rocks, Yosemite, LCC, etc. 

You forgot to add:

• $5 extra chicken fried steak at the Ozark Cafe
• Breakfast burritos and hot coffee available every morning
• Not walking more than 15 minutes to access any part of the crag 
• Well maintained bolts and anchors 

To your point about it being a gym, it is only a busy crag when it is not prime-season.  If you go on a weekend where it is a high of 45-50 and a low of 25-30, there's just not that many people there.  I can't tell you how many times I've camped when I've been one of maybe 3 groups.  It IS a gym when it is warmer out but, when it is prime temps, the crag is far less crowded.  

Big Redwrote:

For sure it has a few gems in terms of pure difficulty/movement, but they're largely above 95% of climbers' pay grades. And I think the only reason routes there get into top user ranking lists is because New Englanders have Stockholm Syndrome for our crags. To be fair, it's better than many NE crags (which would fall into the "crap" category). Some of the climbing is good, the lines are ok but mostly not inspiring, the setting is "nice" and the tick/mosquito/mud/snow/rain/humid/heat seasons make it hard to enjoy more than a handful of days there in the year.

Don't get me wrong, I have had many good days at Rumney but on average it's an average destination.

I kind of agree but Waimea is amazing.

EDIT: IMO, Rumney is clearly above average at 5.10 (decent amount of quantity relative to Rumney's size + lots of other sport areas suck at 5.10), clearly below average at 11a-12a (since OC is too seasonally limited and most other sport areas in the US have amazing routes as those grades) and then good again at 12b onwards (because Waimea is amazing.)

Big Redwrote:

For sure it has a few gems in terms of pure difficulty/movement, but they're largely above 95% of climbers' pay grades. And I think the only reason routes there get into top user ranking lists is because New Englanders have Stockholm Syndrome for our crags. To be fair, it's better than many NE crags (which would fall into the "crap" category). Some of the climbing is good, the lines are ok but mostly not inspiring, the setting is "nice" and the tick/mosquito/mud/snow/rain/humid/heat seasons make it hard to enjoy more than a handful of days there in the year.

Don't get me wrong, I have had many good days at Rumney but on average it's an average destination.

As much as I enjoy the New England trash talking, I think it would be hard to argue that Rumney isn't one of the top-20 US sport crags. It has some national-classic routes. Waimea is one of the best walls in there country for its style and grade range. All this makes a solid case for well above average - at least within the style and grade range where it excels. 

But, there is a reasonable point here about the subjectivity of quality. An area might be the best crag in the world for the 5.strong climber, but does that do you any good if you can't get past the first bolt on the classic climbs?  Perhaps Rumney is just average, to the 5.10 climber. Something I've said about Index, that perhaps applies here also: "It is a good crag for good climbers, but only an average crag for average climbers."  

Reese Stanleywrote:

I'm going to push back on this one.

You said HCR is mediocre for the following reasons:

• High quality rock
• High density of climbing 
• Bouldering, sport climbing and trad available 
• Easy, moderate and difficult climbing available 
• Both tall, and short routes/boulders
• More high quality, high density climbing within a stone's throw of the crag

I think the only thing that HCR doesn't have is multi-pitch (not really, at least).  Otherwise, all of those descriptors could be used for Bishop, Red Rocks, Yosemite, LCC, etc. 

You forgot to add:

• $5 extra chicken fried steak at the Ozark Cafe
• Breakfast burritos and hot coffee available every morning
• Not walking more than 15 minutes to access any part of the crag 
• Well maintained bolts and anchors 

To your point about it being a gym, it is only a busy crag when it is not prime-season.  If you go on a weekend where it is a high of 45-50 and a low of 25-30, there's just not that many people there.  I can't tell you how many times I've camped when I've been one of maybe 3 groups.  It IS a gym when it is warmer out but, when it is prime temps, the crag is far less crowded.  

Haha! As I stated right from the beginning, don't get me wrong, I do love it. It's where I cut my climbing teeth 20+ years ago. That being said, and given the subjectivity of the OP, I think it is decidedly average for the area. 

To expound, I would say that at least 70% of the routes are one/two move wonders, and I would venture that about half of the routes can be climbed with a 40m rope. The well maintained bolts and anchors are quite nice though! I just know that I can find better sport, trad, and/or bouldering elsewhere nearby and not have to deal with goat shit, hammocks and Bluetooth speakers. 

Again, I do love the place for what it is, and my perspective may be skewed just from the amount of time I have spent there. Not living in the area any longer means I'm only there a couple times a year, probably during mob days.

Lumpy Ridge, Big Chief, The Pit, Valley of the Moon

5/10

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

For the Colorado front range people, is clear creek better than boulder canyon?

I prefer Clear Creek over Boulder Canyon by a long shot. Part of it is just preference for the type of rock, and the style of climbing (both the hard stuff and the easy stuff).

As far as North Table goes, definitely below average. It smells like shit (at least at East Quarry). The only thing going for it is that its good in the winter. 

Ah, I get it, the same person who made the climbing snob thread, lol!

Ricky Harlinewrote:

your opinion is wrong 

You got that right.

Another vote for N Table....it's positives and it's negatives kind of balance out.  At least that's how I view from the lens of only clipping enough bolts there (discounting anchors) to count on two hands.  I suppose if you're primarily a sport climber the opinion would probably be that it's below average.

Going in with Big Red.  Rumney all the way.  All of CT too.  Nothing to inspire excellence or digging deep,just stuff to do.  If someone was on a northeastern road trip (why tho?) it's where to visit after doing the classics at Acadia, Cannon, Cathedral, Whitehorse, Gunks.  All those other satellite crags in the region....sub average.  

Pilot Mountain, NC

Colonel Mustardwrote:

Ah, I get it, the same person who made the climbing snob thread, lol!

I gotta give JCM some credit, these threads are a welcome change to the usual drivel. Forum content value is at an all time low. 

Pete Swrote:

Vantage, WA.  Chossy basalt near a highway.  

The setting is gorgeous (you can neither see nor hear said highway) there are plenty of non chossy routes, camping is free. And it's climbable most of the year in the wet pnw. While not 'world class' it's a pretty special and great crag in my book

Sand Rock, AL

Good enough climbing, close enough to Atlanta, cheap enough season pass/camping fees, beautiful views, nice facilities, and free coffee in the AM