Ready made anchor arsenal

Still gunna die. 

zosowrote:

A quad is just a time waster. 

On single-pitch climbing I agree. But on multi-pitch, having one pre-tied can make things super quick.

I built one as described on Alpine Savvy with the 180cm Pur’Anneau.

Thank you all for the feedback, this sport is a bit daunting in the beginning. I have now begun to understand that there are no universal solutions and one always has to balance security and convenience. 

One followup question… I have a PAS, a Petzl Connect, when I reach the anchor, per your recommendations lets assume it is two draws, should I attach it to one of the bolts (not redundant) or to both bottom biners (may cause damage to the rope)? Or option 3 (name it)? My instructor seems very relaxed and has a higher tolerance to risk than I do, I like to have a few guidelines that I would like to follow to assimilate a routine that I know is safe.

When I am expecting to clean the anchor on a sport climb, I generally just carry up a quick draw and a locker. At the anchor I clip the quick draw to the two bottom biners of the anchor draws and then into my belay loop. Now I can sit back on the anchor. Then I thread a bight of rope through the rings and tie a figure 8 on a bight which is then clipped back to my belay loop. Then I untie my tie in knot and pull this extra tail of the rope back through the rings. Then I “take” to weight and test the system before unclipping and stowing all the draws. I’m never off belay through the whole process. YMMV (and even my approach may vary) depending on the specific anchor setup, the stance, and personal comfort level. 

Daniel Joderwrote:

When I am expecting to clean the anchor on a sport climb, I generally just carry up a quick draw and a locker. At the anchor I clip the quick draw to the two bottom biners of the anchor draws and then into my belay loop. Now I can sit back on the anchor. Then I thread a bight of rope through the rings and tie a figure 8 on a bight which is then clipped back to my belay loop. Then I untie my tie in knot and pull this extra tail of the rope back through the rings. Then I “take” to weight and test the system before unclipping and stowing all the draws. I’m never off belay through the whole process. YMMV (and even my approach may vary) depending on the specific anchor setup, the stance, and personal comfort level. 

Exactly this, if you’re using the above system you are never off belay, so it doesn’t matter what you use to attach yourself to the anchor for positioning/unweighting the rope. It could be a single draw as described, it could be a dedicated PAS, whatever.

The only thing I would do differently is to weight the system with the new threaded through 8 on a bight before I untie my original knot. Takes a bit of thought to make sure you’ve got enough slack in between your two 8’s and are not pinching the rope in a way that would prevent this, but you’re testing that second 8 as part of your weight test, so strictly speaking it’s better to not remove your already-checked backup (the original 8) before you do so.

To answer the single bolt question, there are some situations where you do have to go in-direct with a PAS and come off belay. First one that comes to mind is when the chains are small enough that you can’t pass a bight through as above, and have to fully untie to pass a single strand of rope instead (side note, tie something on a bight ~5 feet down and clip it to yourself so you can’t drop the rope when doing this). In this case, your PAS is actually life supporting. If your risk tolerance means you don’t want to trust just one bolt, you could back up one bolt to the other clipping them together with a draw/sling. You could use two opposite and opposed draws from each bolt to your belay loop. You could use a PAS to one bolt, and a draw/long sling from the other bolt (this is my personal preferred method for going fully off belay). As long as you won’t fall off the cliff if any single bolt pulls out of the rock, you’re good. Given the already extremely low likelihood of that, I personally don’t feel the need for everything (or sometimes, anything) in that system to be a locker, but that’s your call.

This is again where understanding the systems and what redundancy means (more than memorizing a single method) is good. There is room for creativity (and it will be required if you climb enough, as the setup of some anchors just won’t work for your standard system for whatever reason). Sorry for the essay… might have gotten carried away in climbing instructor mode a bit.

I agree with everything beside the two normal quickdraws being overkill, but I have seen worse.

I once saw an 8 locker anchor while scrambling a 5.4 multi with bolted belays. A locker on each bolt, one locker per strand on the quad, then two lockers on the shelves. Didn’t stick around long enough to see how they utilized them all.

zosowrote:

Slight thread derail:  What is with all the Quad luvy duvy?  2 draws.  Done.

A quad is just a time waster. 

A quad is not any slower than two draws. If you mostly lead just use two draws. If you do a lot of top roping then the extra security and self equalizing nature of a quad make a lot more sense. Also if you top rope a lot you go through carabiners pretty quickly, actually, so it makes sense to have steel biners on a set of draws specifically for anchors, at which point you might as well just have a quad which is superior in every respect and not any slower.  

 If you do hardly any top roping don't fuck with a quad. The more top roping you do the more gooder a quad is. 

Marc Hwrote:

On single-pitch climbing I agree. But on multi-pitch, having one pre-tied can make things super quick.

I built one as described on Alpine Savvy with the 180cm Pur’Anneau.

How the heck is a mini quad any slower on single P than multi with bolted anchors....?

Edelrid tech sling, remove the knot, make it self position (twist one strand) voi-la

Alec Baker wrote:

Most sport climbing anchors can be cleaned without coming off belay. If you don't come off belay, you don't need to worry about PAS security. 

You may find this video about cleaning anchors helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDilZALfW9c

I am not comfortable with the rappel instruction at the end of that video.  The climber never tested the rappel before disconnecting the personal anchor, and she relied on the autoblock entirely going hands off at 8:19.  

Well this thread rapidly devolved into YET ANOTHER garbage anchor argument.

MY ANCHOR IS BETTER THAN YOURS. 

Alec Baker wrote:

Hi Manel, 

Most sport climbing anchors can be cleaned without coming off belay. If you don't come off belay, you don't need to worry about PAS security. 

You may find this video about cleaning anchors helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDilZALfW9c

To directly answer your question about your tether, if you're relying on it for primary safety, you should clip your into both bottom carabiners so that you are connected to both bolts. It will not cause damage to the rope. 

~~~

There's some more context that is important to understand regarding the difference between anchors used in top roping and sport climbing. One consideration is whether you are clipped through quickdraws on the route below you. If you want to set up an anchor, but you intend to lead the route every time, the anchor security is less important because you have all of the rest of the bolts below you. In that case, two sport draws on the anchor is more than enough because there is still a 3rd bolt below you.

If you're intending to top rope the route with all of the quickdraws removed from the route except for the anchor, you may want more security. Thats when I would use one locker draw and one normal quickdraw. For anchors with offset bolts where two quickdraws won't equalize, you can pre-thread the rope through the lower off hardware, and use a carabiner above it to take the force.

For a light anchor kit that works everywhere for sport climbing, I would suggest buying a 120cm sling or 180cm sling and folding it like an alpine quickdraw with lockers on either end. This can be used as a locking quickdraw, as a v-anchor or quad anchor, or you can use the locking carabiners without the sling directly through the anchor chains or rings. This, plus another regular quickdraw, should work for any sport climbing anchor you encounter and replace all of your other anchors you posted.

And a non-sport TR anchor. 

You have, no doubt, shown a lot of versatility with those anchor arrangements, but all that aside, don't you think that 3 shelf kitchen rack is just a bit awkward to be dragging up a climb?

Well they did say to rack? My gear...???? Didn't they?!

Yes they did.

abe rwrote:

How the heck is a mini quad any slower on single P than multi with bolted anchors....?

Can you show me where I said that “a mini quad is slower?” You can’t, because I never did.

On single pitch, I just don’t think quads are more beneficial than hanging a couple ‘draws.

Bomber, no need for anything fancier. Now, trad can be (and most of the times requires) a different setup. But taking into consideration your Q, I guess "tradart" is out of your league for the time being.

Piotr Sobczakwrote:

Bomber, no need for anything fancier. Now, trad can be (and most of the times requires) a different setup. But taking into consideration your Q, I guess "tradart" is out fo your league for the time being.

I mean this would be a fine way to set up the anchor but there are better ways to do it with the same amount of material and negligible increases in time. Even just a sling with a knot in the middle adds redundancy to the rock cutting the sling without really any added faff…

Marc Hwrote:

Can you show me where I said that “a mini quad is slower?” You can’t, because I never did.

On single pitch, I just don’t think quads are more beneficial than hanging a couple ‘draws.

Self equalizing is a nice beneift imo. Someone mentioned above they don't really care about an equalized anchor which is a little odd to me.

2 bolt anchor in good rock? I don't care about equalizing all that much. It doesn't really matter.

Alec Baker wrote:

Not trying to get into a pissing context of who's anchor is better, but I think the vast majority of climbers would agree that a sliding x isn't an appropriate belay anchor. 

With dyneema i concur, with edelrid tech web i don't see any issue. It's KISS and what the guy is after...something already set up and ready to clip without any adjusting or whatnot. 

And yes, there is vast literature on the subject and all points are valid. 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

Why would edelrid tech webbing not have an issue with a sliding-x leg failure but dyneema would? Or were you thinking that our issue with the sliding-x and dyneema was the possibility of friction melting the dyneema in a force application? (Because that's not anyones problem with the sliding-x) 

In short, in a specific scenario dyneema breaks (see old DMM study), edelrid is dyneema inside nylon 

No friction problem, anyhow the subject is vast and I just gave a simple and safe solution suggestion