Lucky SOB

Tradibanwrote:

Thank you for your due diligence but this is still on the climber, the first piece should always be a solid multi-directional.

Thank you for maintaining your absolutist, blanket statement, even in the face of facts that make it a moot point. I'd expect no less from a good troll.

Y’all are harping on about the first piece, but if you watch the video in slow motion, the first piece is the last to fail.

Part of the problem is that there is no mentorship going on here. When both leader and belayer are clueless bad things can happen. From my experience the best way to become a better climber is to hang out and climb with climbers who are better than you. That's not easy today, but it can be done, and it's an act of self preservation.

Fehim Hasecicwrote:

I think it’s 50/50. Unless this was belayers first time climbing as well he/she should have said something. I wouldn’t want my belayer let slide any mistakes I make in the first 10-15 feet where he can still see what I’m doing.
Maybe this is one of those new age things where  leader clippes first piece and so it’s “on belay” and after that belayer is out of equation.

It would be difficult for a belayor to assess the quality of the first piece from the ground and like Hson said the other pieces failed first! Just bad gear placement all around.

It's  not  difficult for the belayer to stand  next to the effing  cliff.  If the first  piece is not a bolt that is where they are supposed to be. 

Even with a bolted route, standing too far back can dangerously increase the length of a fall.  I've seen dudes 20 ft + away from the base.  They totally ignored my recommendation to move in. Okay, pal.   Best o' luck.

Hson Pwrote:

Y’all are harping on about the first piece, but if you watch the video in slow motion, the first piece is the last to fail.

I found it pretty hard to tell. It might be piece #2 that goes an instant earlier, but if so, it’s because the terrible rope angle from the belayer and the sling length on the first piece allowed the second piece to lift. But then the first piece lifts and with that the rope angle lifts the third piece.

So two things. (1) Harping on the first piece is fully justified in any case, since it’s loss strips the remains pro, including most critically the piece below the one that held the fall. (2) Regardless of the minute details of this incident, a multidirectional first piece is often desirable (but not always necessary).

Perhaps it is worth mentioning that there are circumstances that call for protecting gear from lifting (or rotating out of horizontals) when the placement is not the first on the pitch.

It does appear in this case that there would have been no problem positioning the belayer close enough to avoid zippering. Apparently the party was clueless, so there’s little point in trying to apportion blame—they both should have known better.  But I’d say that at the end of the day it’s the leader’s ass on the line and they’d better be aware of possible problems caused by the belayer’s location.

Definitely on the climber. Without a doubt. 

BAdwrote:

Even with a bolted route, standing too far back can dangerously increase the length of a fall.  I've seen dudes 20 ft + away from the base.  They totally ignored my recommendation to move in. Okay, pal.   Best o' luck.

It’s not that cut and dried.   As has been stated, bad things can often happen with 2 noobs finding their way and learning together at the same time, but an experienced team can use that belayer distance ( at least single pitch cragging) to drastically reduce the FF if you have a bomber multi-directional first piece.  You might want to do this -while still minding too much slack as well as the angles - if the lower pieces are trending to micro gear.   Not so much with bolts unless you’re just super into the softest catch possible.   Too much angle between the belay and first piece can negate any benefit and potentially make it worse, so ya gotta know what you’re doing.

And yes, it’s on both, but the climber is Pilot in command, as he/she is the one doing the flying…  Belayer is co- pilot/navigator for any given climb  

Ryan Woodwrote:

Definitely on the climber. Without a doubt. 

Living in a black and white world must be much easier. 

Yeah.  The  belayer should  never  think for themselves and try to  contribute to the team...

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

Yeah.  The  belayer should  never  think for themselves and try to  contribute to the team...

I almost spewed beverage thinking of you trying to pitch that view to Isa!

Marc Hwrote:

Living in a black and white world must be much easier. 

Climber didn’t place a multi-directional first piece, pretty black and white. 

whatever. if you are ok with your belayer being 20ft away from the cliff then I suppose you can harp on multi directional  pieces in cracks that you can't evaluate yourself.   If you are so sure of yourself that you know a multi directional piece would work in a crack that you are not personally looking at and touching then I guess it is a black and white world...

i blame physics...

that video is the definition of cringeworthy...

Nick Goldsmithwrote:

whatever. if you are ok with your belayer being 20ft away from the cliff then I suppose you can harp on multi directional  pieces in cracks that you can't evaluate yourself.   If you are so sure of yourself that you know a multi directional piece would work in a crack that you are not personally looking at and touching then I guess it is a black and white world...

I’d hope the climber evaluated them considering he placed them… and unless the climb is some finicky, hard to protect rig, if you’re competent at placing gear you can generally be pretty sure of a well-placed piece, whether it’s your first, last, or somewhere in between on the route. 

and if your competent at placeing gear you ask the belayer to please stand next to the route. 

Ryan Woodwrote:

I’d hope the climber evaluated them considering he placed them… and unless the climb is some finicky, hard to protect rig, if you’re competent at placing gear you can generally be pretty sure of a well-placed piece, whether it’s your first, last, or somewhere in between on the route. 

Well, yeah, or you know, you could also just have bothered to read the 1 paragraph description of the event and then you'd know instead of just speculating into the void.

He headed to the Hobson Moor Quarry, a crag near Manchester, and hopped on Crews Route (VS/5.7) for his first-ever trad lead.

“I didn’t own anything but a pair of shoes, harness, chalk bag, and rope so I rang my brother and borrowed his trad rack, which [was] just a set of old DMM nuts that had long been retired into his garden shed,” Sam wrote.

What a time to be alive. We get non-stop news of everything, including climbers taking bad falls from halfway over the world, and then you get a bunch of couch managers speculating endlessly about what happen even though the full description is literally just below the video.

Tradibanwrote:

I'm sure the climber could have placed better gear

He only had nuts.  (Yes he could have opposed a pair of them...)

Seriously Moderate Climberwrote:

He only had nuts.  (Yes he could have opposed a pair of them...)

Climbing on passive gear only is a lost art and not for the budding trad leader. An extension on the first piece would have helped alleviate an outward force.

There will pretty much always be some outward pull on the first piece because the belayor can't get right under it and likely will move backwards in the case of a fall. The leader needs to be prepared for this inevitability.