Grid Bolting is a Myth

i appreciate you, Princess. 

fyi - grid bolting is more of a psyop created by climbing magazines, conde nast, etc for future potential clickbate outrage articles to drive ad-revenue. 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

 If three routes have bolts within six feet of another route but each route is 3 stars, that is okay (like rainy day women or world wall itself). 

This is a solid callback

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Post sucks posts are close= I hate grid posting

Post sucks posts area far apart= I hate shitty posts

Post sucks rock quality mediocre=I hate Choss posts  

Posts awesome posts are close =I love it

Posts awesome posts are far apart= I love it

Posts awesome rock sucks= I love it

If the post is good people won’t complain if it sucks they look for the easiest excuse.

You’re welcome. 

Christopher Smithwrote:

I don't think I generally agree on the premise but do you think this would ever extend into the alpine or would it be the last bastion?

I think it's likely that alpinism will be regulated out of existence, if the current trend in global governing continues.  People pouring out of the gyms with awesome physical abilities and dismal skills when it comes to protecting with gear, judging conditions and most importantly, being capable of self rescue. We've all been aware from the beginnings of climbing gyms of this dangerous dynamic, and wondering how it would affect the future of the oudoor version of the sport in a world more and more obsessed with regulating away danger. A world where the cost of mountain rescue is soaring, while the funding for such is dwindling.

Folks used to go over Niagara Falls in barrels. Nobody told them they couldn't. But try to get permission to do it today.

Chris Trautzwrote:

I think it's likely that alpinism will be regulated out of existence, if the current trend in global governing continues.  People pouring out of the gyms with awesome physical abilities and dismal skills when it comes to protecting with gear, judging conditions and most importantly, being capable of self rescue. We've all been aware from the beginnings of climbing gyms of this dangerous dynamic, and wondering how it would affect the future of the oudoor version of the sport in a world more and more obsessed with regulating away danger. A world where the cost of mountain rescue is soaring, while the funding for such is dwindling.

Folks used to go over Niagara Falls in barrels. Nobody told them they couldn't. But try to get permission to do it today.

Modern lightweight cordless drills definitely come into play as well (although this latest recession may really be a killer so folks will have less expendable income for new toys). 

Beta Slavewrote:

I'll gridbolt the shiznit out of a crag if the rock has unlimited route potentials. I resist camouflaging too as I enjoy seeing all them hangers glitter in the sun on the approach. I'm about as LNT as the guy who blasted out Mt. Rushmore.

(Of course, I'd rather see that crag bolted than reduced to a monument to Statism. Perhaps someday we can bolt the sh1t out of those actual faces)

I call Washington! If my life is ever over and have nothing to live for, im putting up a gluein route right between his eyes! Lol. Watch out when I'm 92! We should leave Lincoln alone though, he was one of the couple of good ones.

Ever been to Owl Tor?. Literally grid bolted. 

Jon Hartmannwrote:

Ever been to Owl Tor?. Literally grid bolted. 

Another great example! Would the climbing there be 1 star better if it wasn't grid bolted? Or is it just a minor inconvenience? 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

I'll take that as a yes.

Grid Bolting= Immaterial

Bad routes=Bad

Good routes= good

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Another great example! Would the climbing there be 1 star better if it wasn't grid bolted? Or is it just a minor inconvenience? 

Grid Bolting= Immaterial

Bad routes=Bad

Good routes= good

Once again though, as in most of your threads, once people make effective counter arguments you just change the thing you claim to be talking about. 

Your point was that grid bolting doesn't exist ("a myth") and that's incorrect. 

Your new point seems to be that grid bolting doesn't affect the quality of climbs, which I'd also disagree with.

mike hwrote:

Once again though, as in most of your threads, once people make effective counter arguments you just change the thing you claim to be talking about. 

Your point was that grid bolting doesn't exist ("a myth") and that's incorrect. 

Your new point seems to be that grid bolting doesn't affect the quality of climbs, which I'd also disagree with.

I’ve said it before, not quite as good as the OG Tradiban, but Trev is a rising star on the list of all time MP trolls. Borderline hall of famer

Jon Hartmannwrote:

Ever been to Owl Tor?. Literally grid bolted. 

Well that's just bolting bouldering problems which is just rude. 

mike hwrote:

Once again though, as in most of your threads, once people make effective counter arguments you just change the thing you claim to be talking about. 

Your point was that grid bolting doesn't exist ("a myth") and that's incorrect. 

Naw myth: a traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events. 

Myths are grounded in some reality though upon further inspection become inaccurate. I can concede that some places grid bolting might exist but most people do not care unless the climbing sucks. If the climbing is good but the protection is close most people look the other way. 

Functionally many many trad climbs are abundant with gear options, effectively grid bolted. If you were to go out and do a bolted climb that had a bolt every foot, the only difference would be the decision making process of placing gear versus clipping a bolt. We do not complain about trad climbs that have too much gear. We also generally do not complain about sport climbs with too many bolts unless the routes suck. I am not sure if it was Megos or Ondra climbing in ceause but there were so many bolts they had to involve the decision making in which bolts to clip and skip. No one has claimed they are climbing sub world class routes.

Your new point seems to be that grid bolting doesn't affect the quality of climbs, which I'd also disagree with.

I think it is pretty rare for what would be a 4 star climb to be two stars because of the bolting. Do you have any examples of specific routes? 

Kevin DeWeese wrote:

He does seem smart enough to be aware of how his intentionally fallacious debate tactics increase the aggressive emotional response in the user to increase engagement.

I am not trying to invoke any response other than civil discourse. I have invited the whole forum to chat with me via phone, to help them determine how genuine my views might be. The issue on mountain project is that if you don not agree with the majority, you are labelled a troll. A troll causes harm, yet no one claims I have harmed them(except maybe making them dumber).

Matthew Jaggerswrote:

I call Washington! If my life is ever over and have nothing to live for, im putting up a gluein route right between his eyes!

Pretty sure he has a dimple there that would take a bomber pink tricam. Might get chopped.

Would you name your route The Nose?

And Kevin, I award you One (1) Snuggly Gote for correctly identifying a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

If you were to go out and do a bolted climb that had a bolt every foot, the only difference would be the decision making process of placing gear versus clipping a bolt. We do not complain about trad climbs that have too much gear. We also generally do not complain about sport climbs with too many bolts unless the routes suck. I am not sure if it was Megos or Ondra climbing in ceause but there were so many bolts they had to involve the decision making in which bolts to clip and skip. No one has claimed they are climbing sub world class routes.

Are you asserting that grid bolting is the over bolting of an individual route? I may be wrong, but my understanding of grid bolting is the over bolting of an entire crag in general, forcing more routes into a given space than is appropriate to maintain an average level of quality. As in, if a crag has 5 very good routes and someone decides to squeeze in four additional routes of significantly lesser quality, one between each very good route, this crag would be considered grid bolted. 

Having an abundance of bolts horizontally as well as vertically is where I always thought the grid description comes from...

Edit to add: You also seem to be asserting that, generally speaking, people believe grid bolting and high quality routes are mutually exclusive. This seems like something you've made up to further your non-argument.  

simplyput .wrote:

Are you asserting that grid bolting is the over bolting of an individual route? I may be wrong, but my understanding of grid bolting is the over bolting of an entire crag in general, forcing more routes into a given space than is appropriate to maintain an average level of quality. As in, if a crag has 5 very good routes and someone decides to squeeze in four additional routes of significantly lesser quality, one between each very good route, this crag would be considered grid bolted. 

Having an abundance of bolts horizontally as well as vertically is where I always thought the grid description comes from...

Yes, but I thought people would consider it silly to use horizontal as an example. Half the routes in Vantage I can go from sport climb to trad climb to sport climb to trad climb in 12 moves just moving left. People do not consider it grid bolted but it functionally is. Do you have an example of a grid bolted route you gave four stars too?

Great discourse tho! 

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

Functionally many many trad climbs are abundant with gear options, effectively grid bolted.

You’re right trad routes are grid bolted. You should tell that to Indian Creek climbers. might help with crowds….if it were remotely true. Top tier trolling here. 

If you were to go out and do a bolted climb that had a bolt every foot, the only difference would be the decision making process of placing gear versus clipping a bolt.

That and having incredibly poor bolting ethics. 

We do not complain about trad climbs that have too much gear.

Because the gear is not permanent for starters. Here you go again changing the direction of the actual conversation to align with your argument. Grade A trolling. 

We also generally do not complain about sport climbs with too many bolts unless the routes suck. 

Also not true, see example below. 

I am not sure if it was Megos or Ondra climbing in ceause but there were so many bolts they had to involve the decision making in which bolts to clip and skip. No one has claimed they are climbing sub world class routes.

Get out to more places dude   

Anytime there’s a possibility to Z-clip the route loses a star in my mind, and I’ve been on plenty of routes that have Z-clipping opportunitie. I actually just witnessed someone last weekend z-clip on two different routes at shelf road. 

I think it is pretty rare for what would be a 4 star climb to be two stars because of the bolting. Do you have any examples of specific routes? 

“Taste the rainbow“ at the RRG

I am not trying to invoke any response other than civil discourse.

If that were true 90% of your posts wouldn’t be disagreements or explaining how you’re right about something. Again, solid trolling. 

 I have invited the whole forum to chat with me via phone, to help them determine how genuine my views might be.

You do this knowing the type of people who actually dislike you will contact you, again troll job well done. How many times have you reached out to individuals? My guess is very little. 

 The issue on mountain project is that if you don not agree with the majority, you are labelled a troll.

Not true at all, pretty you’ve actually created a thread about this very thing that explained what a troll is/does. With that said, this is exactly what a troll would say. You can have civil discourse and disagree with people without being a troll. You however create threads about why everyone should wear their pants over their harness…

A troll causes harm, yet no one claims I have harmed them(except maybe making them dumber).

Again not true. Trolls don’t have to cause harm. When is the last time any of your threads ended remotely on topic as opposed to this one where everyone is, as you likely perceive, “flaming you”?

Princess Puppy Lovrwrote:

 Do you have an example of a grid bolted route you gave four stars too?  Great discourse tho! 

My whole point is there is no such thing as a grid bolted route, but rather grid bolted crags. 

This isn't discourse. This is you reshaping definitions and moving goal posts in order to continue to proverbially hear yourself speak. Now, as has been seen in times past, you will tell me that you are doing no such thing and just enjoy the art of debate. I'm sorry I got involved in this oh so predictable run around.

Man just came back to this I knew Kevin's first comment was enough but we had to keep engaging.  Go reads tho.

Not Not MP Adminwrote:

You’re right trad routes are grid bolted. You should tell that to Indian Creek climbers. might help with crowds….if it were remotely true. Top tier trolling here. 

While I havent climbed at Indian Creek I would contend it is actually not grid bolted, it looks near impossible to free the space between the cracks. I would also agree that Joshua Tree and the Gunks, are not grid bolted but they would be better with more bolts.

Because the gear is not permanent for starters. Here you go again changing the direction of the actual conversation to align with your argument. Grade A trolling. 

Just trying to breathe fresh air into the convo!

Also not true, see example below. 

No one has complained about it being over bolted on the route page?

Get out to more places dude   

When I make it to the land of choss I will hit you up!

Anytime there’s a possibility to Z-clip the route loses a star in my mind, and I’ve been on plenty of routes that have Z-clipping opportunitie. I actually just witnessed someone last weekend z-clip on two different routes at shelf road. 

Sometimes this just has to be the situation. Any low horizontal roof needs bolts close to avoid decking. Maybe that takes a star away but I wouldn't say that is always because it was grid bolted.

“Taste the rainbow“ at the RRG

I don't know if that is the best example 3.5 stars seems that half the people don't seem bothered at all by the bolting. 

If that were true 90% of your posts wouldn’t be disagreements or explaining how you’re right about something. Again, solid trolling. 

I think any thread that is long has to have some disagreements. There are not many threads that get bumped for agreements.

You do this knowing the type of people who actually dislike you will contact you, again troll job well done. How many times have you reached out to individuals? My guess is very little. 

I have reached out to quite a few, no one has taken me up that disliked me. I have made plenty of friends who agree with my posts or want to climb with a crazy person. 

Not true at all, pretty you’ve actually created a thread about this very thing that explained what a troll is/does. With that said, this is exactly what a troll would say. You can have civil discourse and disagree with people without being a troll. You however create threads about why everyone should wear their pants over their harness…

Well I was using marcs definition. 

Again not true. Trolls don’t have to cause harm. When is the last time any of your threads ended remotely on topic as opposed to this one where everyone is, as you likely perceive, “flaming you”?

Seems pretty frequent they end off topic regardless of my presence.