Seattle or Phoenix

Hello! My wife and I have a dilemma. We must make a choice between moving to Seattle or Phoenix this coming fall, from Minnesota. Both areas have an incredible amount to offer.  I’m hoping to get the climbers/ outdoor enthusiast’s perspective. We have a young family (3yo and new babe in May), and getting out on the rock would mostly be in .5 - 2 day stints. Hiking would be the main activity. Aside from the outdoors, cost of living is a huge factor that is pushing us towards Phoenix. We’d be looking in the North Phoenix/Scottsdale area. We spent 4 wks there this February and I have to say it was incredible! not scraping ice off my windshield in the morning is the life. In Seattle my wife would need to commute to South Lake Union. So that could limit how far out we live. Any perspective would be great if people could comment on the accessibility of the outdoors, weather, cost of living, community/culture, etc. Thank you!

Seattle has fresh water, makes sense for a city to be there....

Climbing is pretty decent around Seattle too!

In before Slim, JCM, and everyone else complains about Seattle!

The downsides of Seattle:

Homeless people are nuts in the last two weeks someone broke into my office building and my neighbor pulled a gun on some squatters.
The gyms are all inconvenient, super crowded and there are not enough of them
The crags are all inconvenient if you actually live and work in the city (sport climbs will probably take you an hour to get to from downtown afterwork)
If you need 1500 sq feet it will probably cost you 800k
Traffic is horrific everywhere

The upsides:

It's pretty
You can climb from June - August reliably
The hikes are great

Shawn Swrote:

Seattle has fresh water, makes sense for a city to be there....

I cannot argue with that. 

Both places have their up and downsides.

Seattle is definitely facing the same issues with housing, decaying infrastructure, and burgeoning inequality as most urban centers in the US. Phoenix is a blighted hellscape in the middle of a desert that will soon become entirely uninhabitable, so you get to pick your poison.

Commuting to SLU is doable from a broad range of places if you're driving but traffic in that area is pretty horrendous at rush hour. Many nearby neighborhoods would allow a bike or bus commute, but those are very expensive locations to live (queen Anne, cap hill, central district). Seattle has a lot of varied activities throughout the year - hiking, camping, skiing, climbing (you can climb index year round of there's a short sunny/dry spell and you don't mind wet cracks). Lots of families live in/near the city so you'd find community fairly quickly and there are  great climbing gyms throughout the Seattle area. It is expensive to live in the city, but if you're open to a longer commute there are great pockets outside Seattle that are more affordable. If you live east of Seattle off of i90, ou'll also be closer to accessible climbing, hiking, mountain biking. Reach out if you end up in Seattle and want any more info! 

I grew up in Phoenix and moved away in my late 20s. Much of what made the city a good place to live is disappearing.

Pros:

• Proximal to a ton of amazing outdoor recreation. Climbing and MTB in Sedona/Flagstaff area, the stronghold, even decent sport climbing around the Phoenix metro area. Grand canyon if you love adventure choss.
• Speaking of choss.....SO MUCH QUALITY CHOSS. You like adventure? Arizona has a ton of 5 star choss.
• Cheaper than average housing for places proximal to good climbing. Certainly cheaper than the front range, nor cal, etc.
• Amazing food scene. Seriously, Phoenix ruined me. My standard for Mexican food has been called snobby in other places I've lived. This is one of the things I truly miss about the valley. The beer/liquor/wine scene I would also classify as above average.

Cons:

• Housing prices are increasing at a worrisome rate. Honestly though, that's the story with pretty much anywhere in the U.S. right now.
• Culturally it's...strange. it has an amazing art/music scene and some of the worst and most backward education and politics. Prepare yourself for some diehard and extremist conservatives AND liberals, Mormons, meth heads, etc. Phoenix is basically the embodiment of a weird dichotomy.
• You have to travel for recreation in the summer. Outdoor recreation becomes dangerous in the summer months if you don't drive north to the Flagstaff/Sedona area or south to Mt. Lemmon, which are honestly both freaking rad.
• So many lifted diesel bro trucks driving dangerously. Although I live in Fort Collins so whatever.
• You like snow sports? Tough. There is OK snow for a limited season, but nobody moves to Phoenix for the snow sports.

Feel free to PM if you want to talk in detail.

Um, Isn't the entire southwest soon going to become almost inhabitable? Everything is drying up. (Not that I would live in Seattle, due to the problems mentioned above.)

Thank you folks for all the input and please keep it coming!

I live in downtown Seattle (about 5 minutes from SLU).  I have a lot of thoughts, but I'll keep it to 3 pros and 3 cons.

Pros:

1. Climbing is aplenty and nearly year round if you are fine driving a few hours to get there. Vantage and Smith offer tons of non-summer climbing, which I think a lot of people in this area forget about.  My wife and I climb fairly consistently from late January through late November.
2. The North Cascades offer an immense amount of amazing world class alpine climbing.
3. Jobs pay pretty high.

Cons:

1. Certain parts of the city are sketch.
2. Prices are higher than most cities in the country.
3. It rains a lot for ~4 months per year, the days are short during those periods as well. (On the other hand, summer days are long and beautiful.)
   
   

Chris Cwrote:

I live in downtown Seattle (about 5 minutes from SLU).  I have a lot of thoughts, but I'll keep it to 3 pros and 3 cons.

Pros:

1. Climbing is aplenty and nearly year round if you are fine driving a few hours to get there. Vantage and Smith offer tons of non-summer climbing, which I think a lot of people in this area forget about.  My wife and I climb fairly consistently from late January through late November.
2. The North Cascades offer an immense amount of amazing summer alpine climbing.
3. Jobs pay pretty high.

Cons:

1. Certain parts of the city are sketch.
2. Prices are higher than most cities in the country.
3. It rains a lot for ~4 months per year, the days are short during those periods as well. (On the other hand, summer days are long and beautiful.)
   
   

I live in South Lake Union, and it is stupid expensive here. I agree with all the above but think the "sketch" needs explained. There is a very large drug problem and homeless problem. Together they make lots of streets down town "unique" haha. I work as an electrician on a road crew. So I am often working next to the problem areas.  The violence is much less than you expect it to be which is a plus, though crime such as theft is high.   

I also have a 4.5yo and a 6yo. Parks are not only yours in Seattle. This is the biggest issue as a parent. A park could be clear of tents today and tomorrow there is a drug den and 7 squatters living there. Some parks it is ok to play in the dirt with your kid some have needles in the dirt. Sadly my son's favorite park is over run right now. The current mayor is trying to Crack down on the camps. We will see how it goes.

I will finish with I LOVE WASHINGTON STATE. I deal with Seattle. Great skiing, great climbing, never hot, never cold, a little wet (rain in Seattle means snow in the mountains). If you end up this way shoot a line.

All the above said, I think it should be mentioned that there are plenty of neighborhoods in the surrounding Seattle areas that are much more family friendly than what you'll get in the city core.  A lot of folks move really really close to their offices when they move to a new city, which isnt necessarily always the best fit.  Magnolia, upper Queen Anne, Greenlake, Madrona, Madison Park, are just a few of the much more family friendly neighborhoods that are just a few minutes of a drive away.  Rent will go further square footage wise and the bigger parks will be nice for the kid.  Very few people who work in downtown, SLU, etc, actually live in those areas.

I moved to Seattle in 2012 from MN.  I was extremely excited about the possibility of being between the ocean and mountains.  I grew up on the water and had huge aspiration to climb all over the west.  To me, this is the perfect area for that.  The climbing potential is huge depending on how far you want to drive.  I remember living in the Midwest and bitching about driving to Devil's Lake for the weekend (2-3hrs round trip).  Now I drive that in a day if I'm really itching to climb.  You can climb all year round - you just have to get creative.  The hiking is world class.  Skiing is alright but lots of it around. If you are into ocean / fresh water stuff there is amazing access to all sorts of different activities.  Seattle is generally a family friendly city.   I know there are spotty school districts but I know we have a few of the top districts in the west (don't quote me on this.  I have no kids but I hear it from my parent and teacher friends ha) Not only does it have great outdoor recreation potential but it's a large happenin' city.  You have access to really good food, music, culture, art etc.  Plus, it's within driving distance to a couple other major markets.  Now that is the good part.  The bad part is homelessness, insane housing / living costs, traffic, people - just a lot of fucking people.  Gyms can be insanely packed at peak times.  Trails can feel like you are on a city block bc of the amount of people.  I just paid double the price of a house out here than I would in MN ... and that's in Everett, WA.  People out here are an unique bunch.  The Seattle Freeze is a real thing.  We came here in our 20s and had a hard time making friends.  That being said, after 10yrs we have a solid group of people.  All-in-all, I'd move to the PNW and deal with rain than heat.  You can still go out and enjoy yourself in a light drizzle but not so much in 110deg heat.  Good luck and feel free to DM me with questions or a climbing partner when you move to Seattle haha! 

Phoenix in Feb is delightful. In the next few days it may hit 100 and pretty much stay there til Oct. Midsummer when the lows are 100+ you hardly even see anyone outdoors. 

Greg Rwrote:

Phoenix in Feb is delightful. In the next few days it may hit 100 and pretty much stay there til Oct. Midsummer when the lows are 100+ you hardly even see anyone outdoors. 

The first 100 degree in Phoenix on average falls on May 2nd, but don’t let a few pesky facts get in the way of a good false narrative. ;) 

Apart from the guy talking about 100 degree days in February, I think most of the criticisms of Phoenix are fair. The valley wears on you. In fact, I explored cashing in on this crazy housing market a few times over last couple years and getting out of here, but they hold your years hostage in education and teaching into my 70s is not feasible.

I would say however, it does have a decent location in terms of access to the SW, southern Utah, New Mexico, SW Colorado, Vegas, maybe some stuff in souther sierras, etc. I get a lot of time off, fall break, Christmas, spring break, 60 days over summer etc and have found that I can cancel out the grind of the valley with regular travel, but I am not sure of your situation. And I honestly I do not think I could live here over the summer on a non teacher schedule. I usually knock out a little over a month each summer of living semi transiently in the mountains with my dogs from AZ’s white mountains to MT, Wyoming, etc.

I am from Montana and Michigan and although I feel nothing beats Montana, I do feel for me, life is infinitely better in AZ than my few decades of living in Michigan, but results may vary.

We lived in Missoula and were super active, young family.  Hiking, camping, climbing all the time.  Took a promotion to Seattle and got fat and depressed cause traffic & congestion & small kids meant an epic just to go to Home Depot or Costco.   Very hard to get out of the city to actually enjoy the awesome places.  Ultimately we moved to Spokane and love it.  if you love getting lost in the mountains, choose a smaller city/town and you will be happier! ...like Missoula MT, Idaho Falls, Helena, even outskirts of Salt Lake.  

Pete Swrote:

We lived in Missoula and were super active, young family.  Hiking, camping, climbing all the time.  Took a promotion to Seattle and got fat and depressed cause traffic & congestion & small kids meant an epic just to go to Home Depot or Costco.   Very hard to get out of the city to actually enjoy the awesome places.  Ultimately we moved to Spokane and love it.  if you love getting lost in the mountains, choose a smaller city/town and you will be happier! ...like Missoula MT, Idaho Falls, Helena, even outskirts of Salt Lake.  

Wow, I am sorry you had that experience.  But all I have to say is where there is a will there us a way.  We take our boys to the mountains every weekend and have little issue in doing so.  Just don't be on route 2 between 9-11am saturdays or 4-7pm on sundays. 

The traffic is not good but I grew up outside of DC and I can tell you the traffic here is not anywhere as bad as back home

I'm not much for cities, so I'd have a hard time comparing - the geography defines the difference for  me.  Arizona has fabulous rock climbing: Mt Lemmon, Granite Mountain, Oak Creek, etc.  No alpine climbing to speak of, & no ice.   some canyoneering, the Grand Canyon, fabulous high desert, and some watersports available on Lake Mead and Lake Foul.  Great Mexican food.

Washington has the greatest variety of alpine mountaineering of any state:  volcanoes, North Cascades, Stuart Range, Alpine Lakes Wilderness, real glaciers, plus world-class cragging around Mazama, Leavenworth, Index, & Vantage.  There's also a plethora of water sports:  kayaking, rafting, paddleboarding, sailing, scuba, my favorite - swiftwater swimming, and of course fishing both salt & fresh.  and let's not forget earthquakes...  o yeah, & skiing.  & seafood.

-Haireball