Why develop an area and not tell anyone?

So having developed lots of areas, and having two currently under development that nobody knows about, here are a few reasons:

1.  I've got to trundle a bunch of HUGE loose rocks, and I dont want some knuckleheads hiking up below the cliff.

2. I've stashed static ropes, bags of bolts, a drill, and all kinds of other stuff that I dont want some morons stealing.

3.  I've put weeks into cleaning and bolting a cool new route and I dont want vultures circling around asking "are you done yet?" when I am just starting to try to redpoint.

There are more, but you get the idea.  I generally make my new areas known when we are done, but there is no value added to my experience by telling people about it in the middle of development.

Me and a handful of friends developed one out in the Ely NV area about 20 years ago. Tried to get people out there by word of mouth to no avail. 20+ years later, it is still hush-hush/word of mouth but others far stronger than us clearly found it. Now there's a potential access issue.

Another one out by Echo in Utah. Short routes, very bouldery climbing on not the best rock. A botched clip or bad belay could land someone on the deck on a couple of the routes. Great routes though. Left that word of mouth because it just didn't seem like the kind of place the MP crowd should go to. People are always poking around looking for rock. I'm sure people have found it randomly and enjoyed the adventure. I like that idea.

I Fwrote:

They didn't "not tell anyone", they didn't tell you. Lots of places have small crags with sensitive access and if you seem like a gumby that's going to smear it all over the internet/drag in a party of 8 with 2 ropes and 1 leader people are unlikely to let you in on the secret. 

Haha good point! After asking around people were free to share, but like others have said, could be a number of other things I didn't think of.

Kevin Mokracekwrote:

I think word of mouth crags are great and reminds me of what climbing used to be before everyone had to know about everything right now.   There is nothing wrong with not knowing what a climb is rated or named or climbing with no one else around to see you send.  Enjoy it while you can because it will eventually end.  When it does, go look for the next undiscovered crag and leave the crowds behind. 

I like it! It hasn't blown up in the last 20 years since they got put up, but we'll hope it stays that way I guess :)

Mr Rogerswrote:

Maybe lots of loose rock to still be mitigated.
More trails maintenance needs to be made.

As others have said, you likely just need to start engaging with the local community to get the beta.
But if the Crag is developed enough and you can't get an ear w/ the developers or locals with the beta, I say go climb it and share the love by word of mouth as is the current practice.

Yeah, I was chatting with one of the developers out at the crag today and he mentioned that while they've been bolted for a long time, not a lot of guys have gotten out there to clean the routes well and build landings/trails. Which makes sense cause that's the thing I would want to avoid if I was developing an area as well haha

because when you post it up people show up with dogs , saws, trash and their own ideas of what fa's should look like. next thing you know a bunch of trees get cut down, there are noise complaints and god knows what else. then this happens... 

too many people and not enough common sense... 

I put a lot of time into developing an area. It was extremely important to me. I spread my father's ashes there. The routes were for the community. I put a ridiculous amount of work into developing easier routes and sustainability. A small number of people stole things I had stashed there. Another smaller group of people were just thoughtless: played their music, left their trash, walked on the plants, let their dogs dig holes, needed some ridiculous amount of chalk to climb 5.10. It was hard to let it slide off my back and to calmly talk to people about why it wasn't okay. I'm sure I came across as a jerk more than once. They ruined more than one day of climbing for me. But it was made up for by the routes staying cleaner with use and seeing people having a good time. Also, when people really didn't know what they were doing and were dangerous, I couldn't just go climb somewhere else. Their ignorance threatened my access. The balance of those experiences will vary for everyone. I certainly won't jump on MP right away with anywhere else I develop. 

Maybe the OP can tell us WHY would we tell anyone if we put up a new route or developed an area?

We'll learn the most from that.

It'll be some version of "he's entitled to know...."

ps. see below I was glad to learn I was wrong.

Harumpfster Boondogglewrote:

Maybe the OP can tell us WHY would we tell anyone if we put up a new route or developed an area?

We'll learn the most from that.

It'll be some version of "he's entitled to know...."

Well, I already did in the original post haha... but basically I just figured if people were pouring money into these walls they'd want them to get climbed on and be enjoyed. But, as lots of other people have stated, there are lots of good reasons to keep it secret that I wasn't giving a lot of thought to :)

Jackson Chamberswrote:

Well, I already did in the original post haha... but basically I just figured if people were pouring money into these walls they'd want them to get climbed on and be enjoyed. But, as lots of other people have stated, there are lots of good reasons to keep it secret that I wasn't giving a lot of thought to :)

Then good on ya' mate for realizing that nearly every developer has seen an area trashed and sometimes quickly. Nothing saddens us more.

Conversely, when you put up some routes in a quiet corner and simply never report or promote them....you get to return again and again to a fresh and wholesome place to fully experience the beauty of it again and again just like the first time.

Other spots, you take joy in sharing the stoke and putting smiles on other's faces or appreciate the help keeping a route clean. 

Well despite the irony of saying this while participating in an online forum, perhaps they tell plenty of people they just don’t post about it online. The internet is not the end all be all and simply posting something on Facebook or MP can really fuck up the vibe at some places even if no one’s trying to keep it a secret. 

If you find an area that isn’t on MP- it’s likely for a reason and you should probably just be psyched that you found a cool area that no one else knows about. Keep it hush. Show only good people.

If the developer wanted to publish it. They would. But with thousands of accessible routes and crags that are documented- it’s nice to have a few secret spots.

I’ve stumbled on 6 or so such crags and every time am psyched by the mystery and allure of trying to onsight routes you know nothing about.

I’ve developed crags similarly and didn’t tell many people because of access issues etc.

keep it secret. Keep it safe. Keep climbing wild for those of us who want to explore.

I think the illusion of keeping it "wild" while developing with a drill and bolts is fairly far fetched, I do appreciate onsighting and keeping crags on the DL. I used to be gung ho on sharing places publicly but not so much anymore, the rise in the amounts of climbers venturing out of the gyms is too much.

I opened some routes in a crag area tucked out of sight up a stout hill. If you didn't know this place existed you would only find it like I did - gee, maybe there's something up there, I'll go look on a rest day or something. Well there was, and now there is, routes up there. Me and a very small close group of friends made quite a few incursions and one by one we opened some very nice routes. I asked only one thing of my mates: do not tell anyone about this place without my leave. They honored my request and still do till this day. A handful of climbers know about it.

So the local guidebook author is like an investigator. He was sniffing around the edge of rumor and reputation. He knows me and he "just knew" I had secrets. One of my buddy's did let loose a route name, one evening around a fire, and I quickly shushed him into silence. But I could see the glint in guide book author's eye, and I could tell the investigator in him was sensing a glitch in his matrix. 

He confronted me direclty - what is it, where is it, tell me, YOU WILL COOPERATE! I refused, politely, telling him we need wild places out of the book and off in the white spaces at the edge of maps. He actually listened to me, and deferred to my wishes. He only asked that someday, I would tell him. I made no promises.

Fast forward many years, 5, 10, no 15 years. Still no one has rediscovered the place. Its kind of cool.

So the guidebook author encounters me in the parking area for another climbing spot, one that is in his guidebook area of influence. And immediately the investigator is all over me - when you gonna tell me, I need to know, posterity demands it, history, man think of the history! His appeals were good, but ultimately I was not swayed. 

"Well I know you got something going on up there. I promised you I won't document it but someday you're going to die. And when you do I'm going to be up there the next week, because my promise will no longer be in effect. I'll document your routes and give them all new names, or worse someone else will and take credit for the FAs, is that what you want? "

I shrugged and said, no, I don't want that. He gave me that ah-HAH look, like he got me. Then I said,

"I dunno, maybe someday. Maybe not." We parted ways off to different climbs. The area is still off the maps. And he still honors his promise to me. I like that guy,

And in an interesting and amusing twist - the very day of that parking lot encounter, he was headed off to his own new and secret area. I watched him hike off in an unexpected direction and wondered wtf? About a month later, an acquaintance of his who is a friend of mine, spilt the beans. A week after that I was climbing at his new area.  And this is exactly how secrets get out. Only this time it was the guidebook author's secret that got spilt. The gods they must be crazy, eh?

There is no moral to this story, btw. But keep your routes secret, keep them safe. Its fun! Oh and I won't be spilling the beans about guidebook author's secret place either. Mums the word.

Jackson Chamberswrote:

A few months ago I stumbled across about 20 routes while on a hike not far from my house. I double checked mountain project but they're not posted. I went to a local Facebook group to see who had info/beta and to ask why it wasn't posted here on MP. Got some pretty big backlash with everyone saying that if it isn't posted "it's for a reason!"

A few local developers who had put routes up there commented about how I shouldn't let people know about these routes because they wanted them to stay secret.

So my big question: why go through the effort/money of cleaning, bolting, and developing landings on a crag that you're not going to tell anyone about? 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like most developers WANT their routes to be climbed on? Maybe not, I guess?

I'm just one guy, so figured I could get some more insight from others and this is probably the most concentrated forum for developers. Just seems weird to me.

The best way to answer this question is to train yourself in the prerequisite skills needed for development of a crag, spend your money on the materials, hardware/equipment needed, search for areas that are conducive to development from both a geological and legal perspective as well as aesthetic, then pour yourself into it with hard work.  Do that once, then market your area in every venue possible and watch what unfolds.  I should think at that point the answer to your question will become somewhat obvious.

Cherokee ,That's a  great  story about  mt wishicouldtellyou. Our guide book author is super  cool  that way.  Todd  Swain  was pretty  aggressive.  He asked me about an ice  climbing  area  and I  told him that it was access sensitive.  He told me that he was going to write about it with or without my  cooperation.  Bluntly  I  don't let others dictate what I can  or  cannot  write about.  To his  credit he dug really  deep and  found a  lot of cool  history  about the area that went  farther  back than  many  folks  realized.  I  don't  know what  if any  affect  his  book had  on traffic there as I  haven't been in that  place for  quite a few years now. 

Guidebook authors are parasites on the resource promoting its exploitation for their own profit, no more, no less.

"Select" guidebook authors doubly so.

Harumpfster Boondogglewrote:

Guidebook authors are parasites on the resource promoting its exploitation for their own profit, no more, no less.

"Select" guidebook authors doubly so.

C'mon now, they aren't all parasites!

Harumpfster Boondogglewrote:

Guidebook authors are parasites on the resource promoting its exploitation for their own profit, no more, no less.

"Select" guidebook authors doubly so.

Yeah, those rapacious, money grubbing guidebook authors!  Literally hoarding their dozens of royalty dollars!!  Dozens of dollars!!!!

Harumpfster Boondogglewrote:

Guidebook authors are parasites on the resource promoting its exploitation for their own profit, no more, no less.

"Select" guidebook authors doubly so.

Steve Roper and Fred Beckey are Parasites eh?