Why develop an area and not tell anyone?

A few months ago I stumbled across about 20 routes while on a hike not far from my house. I double checked mountain project but they're not posted. I went to a local Facebook group to see who had info/beta and to ask why it wasn't posted here on MP. Got some pretty big backlash with everyone saying that if it isn't posted "it's for a reason!"

A few local developers who had put routes up there commented about how I shouldn't let people know about these routes because they wanted them to stay secret.

So my big question: why go through the effort/money of cleaning, bolting, and developing landings on a crag that you're not going to tell anyone about? 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like most developers WANT their routes to be climbed on? Maybe not, I guess?

I'm just one guy, so figured I could get some more insight from others and this is probably the most concentrated forum for developers. Just seems weird to me.

Well, hmmmmm... no lines, no noisy crowds, peaceful setting, enjoying the fresh air, no crag dogs pooping, no crag humans doing the same, no fighting for parking, no trash strewn about... not too shabby?

But... no smiling faces, friends, fun times, other than what you bring?   Does that shed any light as to why a person might keep it secret? 

 All crags are discovered eventually. Some crags are forgotten and rediscovered again. Perhaps the developer would just like to keep this crag... secret for just a smidge longer?

You're definitely missing something.

Cherokee Nuneswrote:

You're definitely missing something.

That's great... the point of posting was to find out what I'm missing. I guess you missed that haha

There are a lot of possible reasons.  It could have sensitive access in which case high use will almost certainly end up threatening access. (more widespread information=higher use) They could for similar reasons just be trying to keep the numbers down to reduce the impact on the natural environment of the cliff.  Another reason is to preserve a sense of adventure for users.  As soon as the beta is written down, beta-obsessed climbers will inevitably read about it and the way they climb at the cliff will be forever altered. (knowing the grades, required protection, where the cruxes are, what holds have broken etc)   Lastly, they might just want their own private crag with no crowds.  All are valid reasons to keep the beta under their hat.  Not every crag needs to be posted.  Both you and the developer(s) managed to find the climbing without reading about it on the internet first, so clearly there's not that big a barrier to entry.  You stumbled on a potential gem.  Keep it that way by not posting it here!

Edit to add re: your point about developers wanting their routes to be climbed.  Some will disagree with me, but I don't think most people develop because they want others to climb their routes, but because they want to climb their routes.  Everyone else climbing them is just further positive validation that they did a good thing/icing on the cake.

Thanks Max & Shaniac.

I get not wanting the crowds, but most of the routes are 10+ years old, so that seemed odd to me. But the environmental protection as well as keeping the adventure alive make sense too.

likely access/landowner issue.  lots of examples of private property getting shut down because of people not being respectful, parking, graffiti, trash, or liability.   If public land they may not want state/city managers looking over their shoulder And shutting it down. Def keep it quiet.  

Climbing seems to be becoming more and more like surfing where certain people are "territorial."

This is just wrong.  Clearly their parents raised them poorly and they never learned to be nice and share things.

The climbing I am used to the last 45 years is open and friendly to all.

Maybe they aren’t done developing the area and having their fun. 

Jackson Chamberswrote:

A few months ago I stumbled across about 20 routes while on a hike not far from my house. I double checked mountain project but they're not posted. I went to a local Facebook group to see who had info/beta and to ask why it wasn't posted here on MP. Got some pretty big backlash with everyone saying that if it isn't posted "it's for a reason!"

A few local developers who had put routes up there commented about how I shouldn't let people know about these routes because they wanted them to stay secret.

So my big question: why go through the effort/money of cleaning, bolting, and developing landings on a crag that you're not going to tell anyone about? 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I feel like most developers WANT their routes to be climbed on? Maybe not, I guess?

I'm just one guy, so figured I could get some more insight from others and this is probably the most concentrated forum for developers. Just seems weird to me.

They're telling people about the area, they just haven't told you. Start asking around, as you are here, the goods will come to you.

PS If it's on public land, post up on MP.

They didn't "not tell anyone", they didn't tell you. Lots of places have small crags with sensitive access and if you seem like a gumby that's going to smear it all over the internet/drag in a party of 8 with 2 ropes and 1 leader people are unlikely to let you in on the secret. 

Tradibanwrote:

They're telling people about the area, they just haven't told you. Start asking around, as you are here, the goods will come to you.

PS If it's on public land, post up on MP.

Yeah, no…don’t post on MP. If it’s meant to be on MP, the developers will post it. 

Spider Savagewrote:

Climbing seems to be becoming more and more like surfing where certain people are "territorial."

This is just wrong.  Clearly their parents raised them poorly and they never learned to be nice and share things.

The climbing I am used to the last 45 years is open and friendly to all.

Is this true though? Territorialism is legendary at some surf spots, but I've never heard of anyone being threatened, run off or beat up for showing up at a word of mouth crag. Have you? Has anyone? 

Tradibanwrote:

They're telling people about the area, they just haven't told you. Start asking around, as you are here, the goods will come to you.

PS If it's on public land, post up on MP.

Ahh you mean like Pikes Peak?!?! Maybe someone should even write a guidebook!!

ADAM GRANTwrote:

Maybe they aren’t done developing the area and having their fun. 

Simple explanation, to the point, under 20 words. Winner.

Why go through the effort of talking to the route developers and then ignoring their wishes to keep the place on the low down? They don't want the masses there. Its that simple. Why not just go climb there yourself and heed the wishes of the others who visit that place? MP does not need to know about it.

As has been mentioned above, more people more impact.  

Pre Mountain Project areas were spread by word of mouth or the infrequently printed guidebook.  Now MP acts like the climbing version of Wikipedia, anyone can add any area they want which obviously has its pros and cons.  Realize however that once an area starts become popular vegetation starts getting trampled, cigarette butts start appearing on the ground, parking becomes an issue, land managers or property owners start to take notice and access is threatened.  
I think word of mouth crags are great and reminds me of what climbing used to be before everyone had to know about everything right now.   There is nothing wrong with not knowing what a climb is rated or named or climbing with no one else around to see you send.  Enjoy it while you can because it will eventually end.  When it does, go look for the next undiscovered crag and leave the crowds behind. 

Many reasons it may not be advertised yet:

Maybe lots of loose rock to still be mitigated.
More trails maintenance needs to be made.
Routes are not complete even though there are bolts.
They got booted off the land for (insert reason here)
They're selfish.

Me and one of my partners were getting ready to spread the love of an area we have been developing in the 50 corridor, but then the Caldor fire ran through the area. Now we must do a ton of trail fixing and chain sawing of downed trees among a ton of other small safety issues to bring it back to a level that would be considered ready for the MP group hug.

As others have said, you likely just need to start engaging with the local community to get the beta.
But if the Crag is developed enough and you can't get an ear w/ the developers or locals with the beta, I say go climb it and share the love by word of mouth as is the current practice.

If someone just doesn't want to share, yet it is on public lands, and by all accounts ready for general use (think safety), I would say that's a personal decision if you want to post it on the proj. Be prepared for whatever backlash may come along with it for better or worse.

Frank Steinwrote:

Yeah, no…don’t post on MP. If it’s meant to be on MP, the developers will post it. 

If he posts it on MP we will get the answers to all of our questions really quick!

This is odd bc if you’re from Utah and you have ever driven by Springville on I-15 it is pretty obvious where 20+ routes might be hiding in plain sight. That can’t stay secret for long. 

"hey yall!  l've been spending months doing work, and l found a bunch of gold!  anybody wanna come get help themselves to some gold?  Its a pretty pristine spot, but youre welcome to come destroy it"